Signs of a Pending Divorce with Carrie Cohen

Josh (00:00:02) - The Good day, fellows. Welcome to Uncensored advice for men. Josh here, your host. I have tons of questions about life and relationships and belief systems. So I go out to my community, I ask advice and then record the conversations. So on today's show, we're going to have a conversation with Carrie, who runs couples groups and programs for people who are on the brink of divorce, like right about ready to happen. And maybe she could share some insights on on some of the things that she has seen to help you guys if you found yourself in that sticky situation. Carrie, welcome the show.

Carrie (00:00:38) - Thanks, Josh, I'm happy to be here.

Josh (00:00:39) - Yeah, well, I'm glad you're here. So there's a dude listening who's on the brink of divorce. It's about ready to happen. What What are some signs and symptoms that you have seen that us guys maybe are oblivious to? That a divorce is pending or it's on the. It's on the horizon?

Carrie (00:00:59) - Yeah. Okay. So good question.

Carrie (00:01:02) - So obviously there's a ton of signs and symptoms, but I'll think about some of the most common ones and share those. So, um, one is you've sort of lost your friendship with each other. Like you don't enjoy hanging out together and doing things that you used to enjoy doing, doing day dates, uh, watching a show together, um, exploring new territory. So that's one. The friendship has really withered on the vine. That's really a big one, actually. Um, another one I would say, when, when the couple has really put their relationship on the back burner. Let's say it's a couple who has kids. So if you're a guy and you've got kids, so commonly the relationship goes on the back burner. And I was actually just at a party the other night and talking to a guy and he was telling me that his he has a daughter getting ready to enter high school and another one in middle school. And he said that they really have sort of lost their connection because they've spent the last 14 years focusing on the kids and less so him and more so his wife, which is pretty common.

Carrie (00:02:12) - And he's worried that they are facing the potential for divorce. So that is a really commonly occurring one for couples who have children.

Josh (00:02:21) - Wow. Okay. So lost friendships. So the the curiosity, the day dates, the pursuing of each other. And that goes both ways, man and women. Right? And then you start to see relationships go on the back burner. You're taking care of kids. Maybe in my case, you know, I'm still married. It's just celebrated 14 years. But for a while I had to take care of family. I had to take care of in-law or my parents and stuff like that, walking them through some hard times so I could see those. You know, if you're not focused on a prize, you're going to you might lose it. Yeah.

Carrie (00:02:55) - And there's a lot there's a lot of experiences that we encounter that can easily get in between us and our partner. Like aging sick parents, all sorts of things for sure.

Josh (00:03:06) - Now, I've seen cases where some type of traumatic thing happens with husband and wife and the relationship never recovers from it.

Josh (00:03:16) - Whether it's a it's an affair or a kid, you know, maybe a kid is sick or, you know, God forbid, a kid passing or something like that. But when it comes to those kind of situations, walking into it like how do you before something bad happens, how do you know if you have a healthy relationship versus one that is? Like on the rocks, or maybe one that is vulnerable.

Carrie (00:03:42) - Yeah. So I do want to talk about the what happens when you have something traumatic after this. But so here's how I assess healthy relationships for couples, and I base it on the research that shows what what ingredients are necessary for long lasting marriage. And so my analogy is think about a table with four legs. Okay? So when you first get together, the table is empty, right? There's nothing on it. The four legs make up the four pillars in in my framework of what you need in order to have a strong relationship. So pillar one is trust and commitment. Pillar two is friendship and play.

Carrie (00:04:21) - Pillar three is communication and conflict resolution, and pillar four is love and intimacy. So four pillars or four legs that hold up the table at the beginning. They don't need to be all that strong because you haven't really put anything on the table yet. But as you go through life and you start, you buy a house, you combine your finances, maybe you have children, you're co-parenting, you have aging parents, then let's throw in some other things like job loss, job transition, dying parents affairs. So the the four legs need to be really sturdy to withstand everything that we're going to be putting on top of that. So that is really the first way that I help couples assess where their relationship is. And what I say to couples is, let's think about this from a 0 to 10 zero is, gosh, those legs like have no sturdiness to them whatsoever to hold what you're putting on their all the way up to ten where those legs they are rock solid and you can put anything on top of that table and it is not going to crumble under that weight.

Carrie (00:05:25) - So that's really the first way how I think about this with couples.

Josh (00:05:29) - Yeah, for sure. Now, if I were to to look at one of those legs and say which leg would I want to have the strongest, it would be, you know, love and intimacy, right? Like mine is my love languages. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on are those bulshit are those true? Is, you know, touch. And then I want to know how awesome I am. Like words of affirmation and physical touch are my love languages. Yeah. And I think that resonates with a lot of men. You know, at least the guy said I've been talking to, it's like physical touches is huge.

Carrie (00:06:03) - I would say those are my husband's two love languages too, for sure.

Josh (00:06:07) - Yeah. So when it comes to, you know, my wife's, it's probably friendship and communication, right? Those are her two. Right. So when it comes to this table, I love this table analogy because what happens if you knock out one of the legs? It doesn't matter how strong the other three are.

Josh (00:06:27) - If you have any weight on top, it's falling over. So if I were to take a lens and hold that table up to my marriage. How do I how do I measure that? How do I know? Because I might be I might be blind to really. What's going on? How do I know these legs are strong?

Carrie (00:06:46) - Well, here's where having a conversation with your partner comes in. And so couples don't talk enough about these things. And the reality is that couples don't really think to talk about these things unless there's a problem. And so for most women. They If we think about the four legs for most women, they really want to shore up friendship. Yeah, for most men, they want to shore up love and intimacy. If I just had to pick one. So what's really important is to sit down. So I sort of prescribe. I put that in quotes to couples two dates a week. One date is to just talk about all of the business of what's going on in your world and so that you could keep a pulse on what's going on in your partner's mind.

Carrie (00:07:33) - One of the things to talk about is that is like, is there anything that you're needing from me that I'm not giving you? And you can actually use the four pillars. Is there anything you're needing in way of friendship? Is there anything you're needing in the way of loving intimacy? Now, when I'm working with couples, I'm walking them through this and I'm giving them conversation starters and prompts and things to talk about. But most of the time I would say one partner is actually not very satisfied with their sex life and the other one is totally fine. But they wouldn't know because couples rarely talk about sex. Rarely. So like, are there things that you're wanting to experience with me that we are not doing? Are there new things you're wanting to try? So the first way to really figure out is if those four legs are sturdy is by asking the questions.

Josh (00:08:17) - No. Got it. Is there anything you need from me that I'm not providing? Not giving? See, but that's a that's a tough question because like me, I think Well, you know, the way I approach it is this is what I'm not getting right.

Josh (00:08:32) - Like, it's hard for me to take. I'm just trying to be honest here. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to go. All right, let's put me on a table for a second and go. Hey, sweetie. In these areas. What are. What do you want that I'm not providing? Um, that's a that's definitely a mindset shift because, you know, like, especially like with dudes, you know, like we were working all the time. We're grinding. Oh, a lot of times we're very myopic and needs of the family and such and it's usually revolving around us or any fires that are getting put out. What advice do you have for us guys on how to start focusing on my wife? Well, I don't want you guys to focus on my wife. You focus on your own wife. How do we focus on our wives and start to put our lens on what needs does she have that I'm not providing? How do we do that?

Carrie (00:09:19) - Yeah. So this goes so this goes both directions.

Carrie (00:09:21) - So. So the guy does get to the guy does get to ask the wife or chat with the wife about here are the things that I need. So it's like, so I would say during that 30 minute, like the state of affairs, I use that word as long as the couple hasn't had an affair, if they've had an affair, I don't use that word because it's too triggering. Sure. So we use the state of the marriage. So so when we when we do like sort of a state of the union of the marriage, it's like, you know what? Let's kind of check in. Let's sort of like check in on our four legs here and see how we're doing. I'd love to share with you some of the things that I wish we could have more of in our marriage. And I would love to hear from you some of the things that you wish we could have more of, right? So let's just say let's just do the typical stereotypical male and female. Okay? So the female might say, I would love more quality time together.

Carrie (00:10:16) - I would love it if you would plan a date. I would love it if you would call the babysitter on your own and schedule the date. I would love more acts of service. If we're going with love language, I would love it if you just, like, brought me coffee in the morning without me asking. So that's her, right? He is actually pretty simple. This is no disrespect to men, but men are actually fairly straightforward and women try to make them more complex than they need to be, but they're pretty straightforward. The guy's like, Look, I just want to be loved. I want to have really nice, sexy time with you. And I want to know that like, I'm your number one. So physical touch words of affirmation. Like, that's all I really need. Stroke my ego. Not in a narcissistic way. I just need to know that I am like your main guy and I'm providing what you need. And I just need to be reminded, even though I know that I need you to tell me that they're pretty straightforward, you know?

Josh (00:11:13) - Yeah.

Josh (00:11:14) - And I think with that, if I were to, you know, hold a mirror up to myself and I'd say, I need someone to tell me that I'm number one, I'm there, you know that I'm awesome. If if I was hearing that on the other side, I'd be like, Man, you sound weak. You sound, you know, just saying that makes me feel vulnerable and makes me feel like, listen, if I feel like I need something from you to tell me how awesome I am, that means that I'm weak, Right? And but the problem is, is I do need it. I do need my wife and my kids to tell me that they love me and that that I'm awesome. Right? So. So how do I. How do I reconcile that in my own head? Because I don't think it's weak.

Carrie (00:11:58) - Right. So. At the foundation of being in a relationship is vulnerability. So we all are exposing our vulnerabilities when we decide to partner with someone, which means exposing all of our limitations and our flaws and our insecurities.

Carrie (00:12:24) - And we do that with someone that we trust is going to take good care of that. And when we do that and they accept us for who we are. Then we are actually able to be even that much more vulnerable because while this person loves me for even all of my flaws and my quirks, so relationships are really built on the vulnerability there. But I get it. It's it's harder for men to say that, which is why I say that. And men don't. You know, women talk about this stuff to each other. Guys generally don't. My husband has a background in psychology. We talk about everything. But I could tell you he's not talking with his guy friends about like, Yeah, I wish she would like, tell me more how awesome he's not having that conversation with them. So I get it. So guys also need to really find someone in addition to their wives and maybe this is a therapist where they've got this space that they can just like be all of who they are and not feel worried about feeling criticized, feeling judged, feeling less than feeling weak, any of that.

Carrie (00:13:29) - That is really the large reason why I would say men seek out and stay with someone that they're working with, a therapist, a coach, whatever it is.

Josh (00:13:39) - Yeah, I'll tell you, man, it's the the feeling judged, criticized, weak that makes me put up walls and it makes me like this is how I respond to it. I'm not saying that that's right. But when I feel judged, criticize or weak, I tend to run that pendulum on the other side, right? I get aggressive, I get defensive. I get, um. I start to strut myself. My. My pride kicks in, my ego kicks in. And then that I've never had a good relationship built on any of those things. Right? So when I'm feeling judged, criticized, weak, you're saying a good, healthy place. If you're feeling that is through counseling, a coach or therapist or something like that. Now let's go to you. Where did you one day wake up and go, hey, I want to mess.

Josh (00:14:30) - You know, I want to work with dudes. Like, how did how did that even come to be?

Carrie (00:14:35) - Okay. So, so, um, so when I started working with couples, um, I naturally would get men coming to see me. And. Some men have a preference to have a male therapist, but many men actually want to have a female therapist for lots of reasons, and one of which is if they are astute enough, they really can benefit from getting a female perspective from someone who's not their wife. And so so what I have found in the history and actually funny, funny story. So one of my probably my second job in the year 2000, I was working in child welfare system and was running men's groups for men who were either fathers or stepfathers who either they lost their children or their wives lost their children to the child protective system and actually hired my now husband for a job to facilitate those groups with me. So that is how we met. So we were it was a male female facilitator model.

Carrie (00:15:40) - We were co facilitating these groups. And as a woman working with these men, some of which who like had really traumatic histories, I had to really work kind of cross on this.

Josh (00:15:52) - Depends.

Carrie (00:15:52) - Which one really work my ass off to develop credibility with these men. Yeah. Because they really were sort of like connecting way more with my male counterpart who was not my husband at the time. And so, but once I earned the credibility and the respect from them, what really unfolded after that was just incredible to see how they were so interested in like, Well, let's get the females perspective. Let's see what the woman thinks about this. And so I have found ever since then, you know, we're going back over 20 years, is that there's something really satisfying about being able to provide a space for a male in such a non-judgmental, compassionate way where they feel understood and not judged. And ever since then, I would say I've always held space in my practice with my therapy practice, my coaching practice for men to come and really, truly be themselves.

Carrie (00:16:46) - And if they are in a marriage to be the kind of man they want to be, the kind of husband they want to be, the kind of father they want to be. Because the reality is, is they can't really expose themselves and talk about that anywhere else. And most of these men did not have dads who were models for them. Same with my husband for sure.

Josh (00:17:06) - So if we were to, you know, somehow have insights into all of your thousands of people that you've helped over the years, men. Yeah. And, you know, wrap it around, I felt, you know, I didn't want to talk about this because I feel judged, criticized, weak, whatever. If we had to choose a few categories and let you know, go behind the scenes to your sessions, what are some categories that are going to pop up where men don't talk about it because of the fear of rejection being judged, criticized or being weak?

Carrie (00:17:36) - Yeah. Okay. So the top one is there.

Carrie (00:17:40) - Their wife doesn't initiate sex with them, so they don't feel like they are attractive enough to their wives or their desired. So that's a big thing. Obviously women want to be desired, but but men are really good, generally speaking, at showing their desire for their female partners. Yeah, women. And because it's on their radar all the time. Yeah. Now because men and women are wired differently, it's not on her radar all the time, so she is not being demonstrative in that. So, so many men feel like I just feel like I'm not attractive to her. I feel like she doesn't desire me. That's a really big one. They want to feel desire, not just know it. Feel it. Yeah. So that's number one.

Josh (00:18:24) - Okay.

Carrie (00:18:25) - Number two. Men feel an immense responsibility to be a good provider. Whether that is whether that manifests in how much money they make. Whether that manifests in being able to give their wives everything they want, whether they can afford it or not.

Carrie (00:18:40) - And they also have a really hard time tolerating if they disappoint their wives. So those, I would say, are the three big areas.

Josh (00:18:48) - Yeah, Let's let's talk about sex. The the, you know, wife doesn't initiate sex or pursue. Here's what happens right from from my perspective. And my wife's giving me permission to talk about me. I'm not allowed to talk about her on my show. So those are some of our boundaries. But from from my perspective, if I initiate sex and then I get rejected for whatever reason, right. I've been with the same woman for more than 14 years. And if I initiate sex and it gets rejected, I'll tell you the next time me initiating it is going to it's going to be a lot harder and it might not happen. Right? So like that fear of rejection from from the wifey, I got a headache or I'm tired or I've been dealing with the kids all day or whatever the reason may be. I'll tell you that what happened to my mind, I start to pull back in terms of initiation.

Josh (00:19:42) - So if she's not initiating it and I'm not initiating it, then unless it's on the calendar, it ain't happening. Right. So how do you how do you work through guys on the who initiates, how to initiate, how to build a healthy sex initiation pursuant of each other?

Carrie (00:19:59) - Yeah. So of course, it depends on some of the underlying factors. But if we just keep it like clean and basic and say that there's no underlying issue, she is attracted to him. She just doesn't think about it because she has a million things on her mind and he thinks about it over 500 times per day on average. Um, what, what I, what I do is I sort of normalize that dynamic for couples and normalize the fact that, um, that, that she's not thinking about it, not because she's not interested in him necessarily, but because she has other things. She's thinking about it. It's not forefront of her mind. So I encourage that couple to have a conversation about this. And I so that's a very common dynamic where men feel rejected.

Carrie (00:20:44) - And so I, I really work with men to have that conversation with their wives and say, look, when I initiate sex and you turn me down, I feel rejected. So can we come up with a way to have that discussion? So that I don't feel this way because then it piles up and over time it makes me retreat from you. Because honestly, you know, I see couples, they haven't had sex in five years, ten years, 15 years. And the longer you go, the harder it is to. It feels awkward even after six months. It feels awkward for sure.

Josh (00:21:23) - And I say my my natural response was, Whoa, like that. How? In my mind and I want to be a loving husband who's committed. And let me go back to your list. I want to have the commitment there and and that you could try. But if I if I went that long, like I don't know how I would show up in a relationship because that's one of my major, like, love needs.

Josh (00:21:45) - So if I, for whatever reason and not get in that I don't know how my brain would would operate in that like. In terms of what you've seen for people who have gone that long, what are some of those reasons that you have seen that happen?

Carrie (00:22:00) - Yeah. So so couples it started with for many of these couples, it started when their kids were little. Yeah. And so they just couldn't figure out, like, how to squeeze it in, how to fit it in. And let's all just sort of describe one dynamic. So, so he's initiating. She's like, I'm tired. I was with the kids all day. It's 8:00. I just put him to bed. I want to go to sleep. I don't want to have time with you. And then that really starts to devolve into months and then years. And then they stop initiating and then they he stops initiating because he's not going to initiate anymore. And she doesn't initiate. She thinks everything's good and then they only have a friendship.

Carrie (00:22:39) - So this is sort of one of the areas I focus on with couples where they're empty nesters, so their kids are like in high school or they're empty nesters because by the time you get to empty nesting and you've reached that stage of your marriage, you're likelihood of divorce is very, very high. So I see couples, they come to me preempting, nesting. Their kids are, you know, adolescents and and they're just friends. They're roommates. They're good business partners. They're roommates. And the only thing that differentiates a romantic relationship from every other one we have is the is the sex. It's the intimacy. Right? So those four pillars, the only one that differentiates, the only one that is separate from every other relationship is the love and intimacy. And so without that, um, where is the marriage? And so women will often say, well, that's all he wants from me and my stance. So and I can say this to women as a woman, as a male therapist, this would be a lot harder.

Carrie (00:23:32) - But it's like, well, of course they want that, right? Like, why wouldn't they? We are like their only love object. We are it. They've committed to a lifetime of monogamy, not a lifetime of abstinence. Right? So there's a lot of, like, paradigm shifts I find for women to not feel bad about the sexual part of their relationship with their spouses or that they want that or more of that, or they can't get enough of that. You know for.

Josh (00:24:00) - Sure. And, you know, I'm not passing judgment at all, but I am I am shocked by situations we find ourselves in as men. Now, if you looked at my life, there'd be a lot of things that guys would be like, Oh my God, I can't believe, you know, like I, you know, hours have been mostly financial hits and, you know, lack of security and jobs and such like that, which, you know, like that's a high need for my wife. But I'm an entrepreneur, visionary and stuff like that.

Josh (00:24:25) - So that's been a lot of our battles. Is the money, the provider side of things. Things are changed now. But but we've had decade worth of getting our ass whipped, but I'm just going to kind of bring it back to sex, sex and money and power, right? Like that. Those are the things that drive most dudes like me. But when it comes to if we're going through a dry season, my wife and myself in in the bed and in the bedroom or or whatever, I'll tell you, like the temptation that happens in my brain and a thousand of the dudes that I've talked to in my groups and everything like that is there's this there's this idea of this porn or this overly aggressive sexual female who just loves sex and, you know, any way you want or anything you want, you know, just say yes and you know, where whatever. But there's this temptation that that that's the easy go to to fulfill a need. What have you seen?

Carrie (00:25:19) - What have I seen in terms of the porn being the easy temptation to fulfill the need?

Josh (00:25:24) - Yeah.

Josh (00:25:25) - So that is kind of like the baby step number one that I've seen when talking with dudes or something. So, you know, the pawns are easy release. It's a, you know, I'll never get rejected. By what? Fill in the blank, right? It's easy. It's private. Nobody has to know about it. So I think that that's kind of like the that's the easy button. That was easy. But then you feel bad in shame and, you know, it causes issues and relationships. But there's something about like this idea of this like promiscuous, you know, I think girls are grown up telling them that sex is bad and they're not allowed to be slutty. Guys could hook up with whoever they want. Girls are not allowed to. So I think that leans into, you know, how women view sex. I don't know. I have no clue about women. But, you know, that's my thought is like the porn thing is, it was a problem for me for a while.

Josh (00:26:12) - And, you know, I see it being a problem for a lot of dudes, but what have you seen?

Carrie (00:26:17) - Okay, so I have a little bit of a different take on pornography. Okay. So in and of itself for men, for women and for couples in and of itself, I actually think it's fine. Okay. And I think it's fine. When it's not a substitute for intimacy with your partner and think it's fine when you hold a realistic perspective that this is acting and not real life. And and I think it's fine when it is not interfering with any other aspect of the marriage. And I have seen many couples able to. Have porn present. Either they watch it together or she watches it or he watches it. So I. So in and of itself, as just a baseline, I would say there is nothing wrong with it. Barring those sort of extenuating examples I just gave you. Right. So it's like if this couple so the way I see it is couples are free to negotiate whatever they want in their marriage, right? So whether that's an open marriage, whether, you know, whether that open for one and not the other, like who am I to tell couples how to like structure their marriage? What I'm here to do is really help couples navigate those boundaries and the implications of that and be very thoughtful about sort of the pros and cons, because to me, everything in marriage is a negotiation.

Josh (00:27:48) - Oh, that's for sure. Yeah, absolutely. And or when, when it becomes a non negotiation then then it's a dictatorship. Right. And that's not a relationship You can't have a you know, I've tried that before. Didn't turn out well. Women submit this is what you're supposed to do. That took a few years of, you know, unwinding those decisions. But here's what I hear. Do you mind if I challenge a little bit? Can we go to Bad.

Carrie (00:28:13) - Away like I like a good, you know, debate?

Josh (00:28:16) - All right, cool. When I hear the language like porn, it's fine. If I ask my wife, How are you doing? I'm fine. But, you know, you said porn for him. Fine porn for her Fine porn together. Fine. And then you say there's nothing wrong with it. What I didn't hear is porn is awesome. Porn is good. You know, this is like I didn't. I heard fine or not bad, but I didn't hear great.

Josh (00:28:44) - Is there any place where it could be great or are there any places where it's super harmful?

Carrie (00:28:50) - Okay. Yeah. So? So. Yeah. So this is interesting to think about. So men generally speaking, have a much more richer, a much richer fantasy life than women, right? So men are very visual and women really are not. We're emotional. So when you're in the bedroom, they've got a picture and image in their mind, generally speaking, of anyone could be their wife but could be any anything that that that geometrically works for them. Whereas women really are not holding images. They're not visual like that. They're really more about the emotional connection. And most women don't know what they like because they haven't been exposed to lots of things. They haven't been exposed generally to, let's say, looking like I'm older than you, but back before, like you could get porn on the computer. Women were not looking at magazines. Generally speaking, women are not watching porn. So what's happening with with So we have to sort of separate the generation.

Carrie (00:29:58) - So the current young generation of men who are coming up, they're they're learning about these things through porn, watching porn. And their perspective is very skewed. They're thinking that's normal. So that's like a separate crew. I'm not really talking about them right now, but if I say where is it harmful? I would say they're because they develop a real sort of misguided approach of what women's sexuality is like because it is not like that. Right? We all we all we know that, right? They don't. Um, but here's where I feel like porn can be really great for couples and women is you get to see things and, and, and experience things by watching them and feeling them in your body of what's interesting to you and what turns you on and what excites you. You could also get that from like a, you know, an old romance novel or something, not the modern day ones, but really, you know, some more of the historical, you know, romance novels. But one of the reasons why men men have many men who have watched porn, they sort of have this exposure to that.

Carrie (00:31:00) - As long as they're realistic about knowing that that's not how female sexuality is, but they see different things. Again, men are visual. It's like, wow, that's really interesting. I'd like to try that. Or well, that turns me on. So we don't know what we don't know until we're exposed to it. So in the way where I find it can be helpful is by being exposed to things. Now, if you have two partners who are just totally fine with the same thing that they do all the time and they have no interest in exploring and they're not curious about what they don't know, more power to them, that's great. But if you have one that is and one that isn't, then that couple has a negotiation to do and they have to figure out how they're going to bridge that gap.

Josh (00:31:36) - Yeah, Yeah. So I feel like the that negotiation. Let's bring the negotiation to the table. All right. So one person wants one thing. It could be either one, it doesn't matter.

Josh (00:31:48) - And it could be sex, it could be money, it could be anything. One person has an expectation here. The other person has an expectation here and now because they're, you know, like when two people get married and they love each other and they're the exact same person, then they're, you know, they do the same thing forever. And that's cool. Not likely. You know, not a lot of stories of that. Usually different people are together, right? My wife and I are very different. How do we come to the table and negotiate tough topics like sex? Like fill in the blank, whatever.

Carrie (00:32:18) - Yeah. So let's do that continuum. So let's say, you know, relative to each other, you're. You're both on the polar ends. Okay. And so, so then we've got the midpoint, right? So what, what I work with couples on is moving them each halfway to the midpoint. So now instead of being 100% apart because they're in polar opposites, now they're halfway to the midpoint.

Carrie (00:32:42) - And to me that's compromise. So, um, so she, she wants to take one $30,000 vacation every year and he wants to be able to put that money toward retirement and take a $2,000 vacation per year. Okay. So clearly they're far apart. They're $28,000 apart. So, so to me, that really is compromise and negotiation. So he's got to come up from the 2000 and she's got to come down from the 30,000. Right. And so which is the case for everything. And then the couple has to decide like like I really want my partner to be happy, right? So I want to be able to give my partner what they want if I can, Right? I'm not going to agree to a $30,000 vacation every year if we are making only 200,000 combined in our household and then we're saving nothing because that's not really looking out for the health of our future. So these are all of the conversations that I would say that the couple can then fall back on. So we want to be able to give what our partner wants to make them happy, but not at the expense of some other fundamental value, right? So again, it goes back to the the pillar or the leg of communication and conflict resolution.

Carrie (00:34:04) - And this is where couples get stuck because they can really just put their, you know, sort of draw the line in the sand.

Josh (00:34:10) - Yeah. Oh, for sure. Because, you know, like when I could feel a fight coming, right? Like I have a thermometer in my brain and I just know when she's not happy or when there's something I could walk in the house, not even see her. I could just feel it. And I go, Oh. And most of the time I'm like, It's not worth the fight. All right, babe, what could I do? You're not showing up 100%. I'll fill in the gap or vice versa, Right? But there's some times when I want to dig in my heels and go. So is the fight worth it? I'm like, sure is. Let's go for it. Right. Um, and that doesn't usually end out well, does it, When it comes to these kind of situations, Is it always like one person have to like, you know, like eat dirt or initiate that? How does that look?

Carrie (00:34:57) - Yeah.

Carrie (00:34:58) - So in this case, I would be thinking about, okay, so why, why am I or why is this person sort of itching for a fight? Yeah, right. So what's going on with me? What's like, bubbling under the hood that's got me, like, wanting to provoke something here and was, like, triggered by something else? Am I just in a bad mood? Am I taking it out on my partner? Um, and so is it. Just eat dirt? Sometimes? I would say probably yes. In the service of in the service of doing something for the person who we want to spend the rest of our life with. It's not all the time though. Yeah.

Josh (00:35:37) - But I think that's the right answer because to be honest, like, this is how I view it. And I might be wrong and I don't give a crap what other people, you know, have, whatever type of things going in the other guy's head like, This is how I view guys. This is this is how I view it.

Josh (00:35:53) - Fellas, I think it's my responsibility to take care of my loved ones and the way I do that in my in my opinion, I'm not passing judgment. This is how I do it. I'm going to get hate mail from this. I feel that if the fights are brewing, it's my responsibility to try to make it work for the family. And that sometimes means eating dirt, sometimes saying I'm sorry when I really freaking don't feel like it. Sometimes it feels like that. Now that's hard. And then I need to go in the garage and punch the punching bag or I need to go to the gun range and pop off some rounds at a piece of paper or something like that, or go work out or get exhausted or yell at something that's not my wife or my kids. That's how I view it. And I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. Am I doing the right thing here?

Carrie (00:36:37) - Yeah. So imagine if both partners had that attitude. That couple would just be. Soaring through life because they both are putting the relationships needs above their own need in the moment.

Carrie (00:36:59) - And that really is super beneficial for a relationship, right? So when my need in this moment is conflicting with the need of my couple. I have a decision to make. Do I go for the me or do I go for the Wii? And if I am in the best state of mind possible and I'm calling up all my emotional intelligence, I'm going for the Wii for sure. If I want to be married, I'm going for the weak. So So here's a here's something for your guys. Um, it's one of it's one of these sort of quotes that I heard so many years ago in a marriage conference I was at. You can be married or you can be right, but you can't be both. So when we have a need to be right, that's a me state of mind. Yeah. It overrides the Wii state of mind. And we really can't be in a state of mind if we want to be in a relationship with someone.

Josh (00:37:53) - Yeah. And once again, I told you in the very beginning I'm myopic for needs and with really what situational awareness of what's going on.

Josh (00:38:02) - So here I am. I'm working my ass off. I wake up in the morning, blah, blah, blah. Fill in the blanks. Right? Any sob story that any guy will tell you showing up as provider protector, hunting and killing. And you know, like on the flip side, like it's I assume it's really tough to be a woman, you know, dealing with kids. You know, we've got a ten, six and a three. We've got a puppy at home. She's, you know, house, you know, taking care of the house and the family and the dogs and this and that, and then has to deal with their needs all day long and then deal with my needs all day long. So like I said, I'm myopic in terms of like I could only see me. My coach, Charlie says I'm not much, but I'm all I think about, right? When it comes to that, How do we learn how to us guys learn more about what women go through and what women want? Like the movie from Mel Gibson back in the day.

Josh (00:38:55) - How do we how can we become more aware without being a wimp?

Carrie (00:39:00) - Mhm. Yeah. By really sitting down and talking to them and getting to know what's going on with them. So one of the first things that I work with couples when I'm seeing them Yeah. Is something called building your blueprint and this is really understanding the inner workings. It's like the inner landscape. Think about like an architect. An architect doesn't go build a house without having architectural plans. So this is the blueprint. It's the mental blueprint. So the more we understand about our partner, what their dreams are, what their fears are, what worries them, what keeps them up at night, what they wish for and long for who they're, you know, first grade best friend was. And when the first time they felt embarrassed, all of those things, that is that is sort of the the blueprint that I wholeheartedly believe that all couples really need to have of each other in order to have that kind of understanding. And it's one of the underpinnings, actually, of those four pillars that we already talked about, um.

Josh (00:40:01) - Which is trust and commitment, friendship and play communication and conflict resolution and love and intimacy.

Carrie (00:40:07) - Yep.

Josh (00:40:08) - So. As we're as we're nearing the the end. What I want to do is give it, guys a space in place to connect with you, especially if they need some help, Like they need a place where they could talk about this because they're not going to talk with Bob at the water cooler, you know, in the middle of the cubicle, you know, whatever. And they're not going to talk to their wife about it yet because they don't know how to approach it. And they they want to whatever. So they need a place like you to do that. Where could they go to make that happen?

Carrie (00:40:38) - So they can find me on Instagram, Carrico and coaching. They can email me CC at kariko and coaching. They can find me on LinkedIn. I can give you all those links for the show notes. Um, and they can find me. And if they are interested in talking with me or talking with my husband, he and I philosophically, everything I shared with you, we are so aligned philosophically on all of these things.

Carrie (00:41:04) - So we're sort of very similar in that way. Um, and yeah, and actually have a in the next few weeks I'm going to be rolling out a one week boot camp, the marriage rescue boot camp. And this is for people in, in in a marriage, in a relationship who want to take the first steps on creating a lasting marriage to avoid divorce. Yeah.

Josh (00:41:28) - Yeah, man. Divorce. I've seen it go through, and I've never seen a good divorce.

Carrie (00:41:34) - Yeah. No, they're. They're not good.

Josh (00:41:37) - Yeah, I've seen a lot of pain. I've seen a lot of hurt. And I always look at those situation, I go, I wonder if. And I play the Wonder Game, right? I wonder if that could have been reconciled or if that could have been this. And I just know some crazy people where I'm like, Yeah, maybe that was a good move, right? Like maybe it was wrong move getting in, but maybe it was right move getting out, I don't know.

Josh (00:41:56) - But I think having those conversations with someone like you who've seen it from many different angles and aspects, I think it's healthy. So, fellas, if you want to connect with our guests and ask some questions and explore what they do and how they could potentially help with what's going on. My advice to you. Raise your hand and ask for help. Right? Just say, hey, I'd like to check it out. I'd like to get to know you. Say, hey, I heard you on the show and I need some help. Right? I think that is a beautiful spot to be. It's not weak. It's strength. All their contact information will be in the show notes below. Um, Carrie, during this interview, there's probably a question that I should have asked you that I screwed up and did not ask. What is that?

Carrie (00:42:36) - My, like, my introduction, my background?

Josh (00:42:39) - No. What questions should I have asked you that I screwed up? And you're like, Josh, you forgot to ask me about Fill in the Blank and maybe it is your background or something like that.

Josh (00:42:46) - You don't know.

Carrie (00:42:48) - Do you have something in mind?

Josh (00:42:50) - I don't know, I guess. Is there a specific licensure or degrees or designation or something that that that you feel was important for you to get to be able to do what you do?

Carrie (00:43:04) - I mean, you know, I would say I would give a little here. I'll give you a little bit of my. Yes. So I have a graduate degree in clinical social work, and I've been practicing as a psychotherapist for 25 years. I was actually married and divorced in my 20s. Do have so I do have a divorce under my belt. And I'm celebrating 19 years of marriage with my current husband. Um, this in two weeks. And, you know, for me, it's really been my it's been my, my professional experiences, my professional training and my personal experiences. And I bring them all together. I'm pretty. I'm pretty sort of real and realistic with my clients. Yeah.

Josh (00:43:46) - Well, I appreciate our conversation today, and I could attest to I felt very comfortable talking to you and I felt very confident that guys will will will also feel the same.

Josh (00:43:57) - So I want to encourage you guys to reach out to our guests, say thank you, ask them for help if you need it. And guys, as always, I love you. And if there's something that you need, I always, you know, offer to to hug it, to give you some love, give you a, you know, give you a time of day. So my cell is (352) 274-4500. If you need a guy, just say, hey man, you're doing all right. And just to listen to you for a little bit, give me a shout if you have something you'd like to share here on the show. Uncensored advice for men. There's a little form. Fill it out. Maybe get you to be the next guest. Till then, we'll talk to you all in the next episode. See you, fellas.