Out of the Psych Ward with Shawn Lesser

Josh (00:00:02) - Good day, fellas. Welcome to Uncensored Advice for men. This show's for you guys, I love you. Proud of you for listening in. Um, as always, if you need help, if you need to chat with someone, a quick prayer or maybe a a referral to someone who could help. My number is (352) 274-4500. Let's dive into today's interview with Mr. Sean. Sean, welcome to the show.

Shawn (00:00:27) - Josh. Thanks for having me. I'm excited for the show.

Josh (00:00:29) - Yeah, I'm excited too. But I'm also nervous because, uh, your story spans the width of success, and the world would look at failure or the world. Uh, could you use the word corporation? And you found yourself in a very, very bad spot? Yes. Um. With this. I know people could go back and listen to your story many different places, but you found yourself in a room with a locked door and you weren't able to get out. What? What was that? Why didn't you explain? Where did you find yourself?

Shawn (00:01:09) - Uh, I was in in a in a psych ward.

Shawn (00:01:12) - Right? Uh, I just go a little bit backwards. I was in, I was depressed, I wasn't feeling good. I went to the emergency ward and they said, do you want to go to the psych ward? I didn't really know, uh, what that meant. Uh, but I wanted to go somewhere. And when you go to the psych ward, the first thing they do is they search you for forks and knives and anything so you don't hurt yourself. So I can get more into that experience. But it was a. An interesting place to find yourself and be like, what am I doing here?

Josh (00:01:43) - Yeah. What the hell happened? I find myself one day, right? Yeah. Because, you know, if I read through your resume, you have a pretty stout resume, and you've accomplished some amazing things for me. You know, I've been bankrupt. I've been on food stamps. I found myself, you know, been venture capital, private equity. I've had some successes, but I've also had some major losses.

Josh (00:02:05) - Um, for me to go to a hospital and say I need to be checked in or need something like that, that that you must be in a in a lot of pain. Because for me, I'm a man of ego and pride. What will people think? What will happen? There's going to be a strike on my resume for the rest of my life. What was going on in your in your day, the day before you went to go check in, like what was going on in your world?

Shawn (00:02:32) - Let's rewind a little bit. So, uh, I'm 55 now, but I had depression come and go. Uh, 20s, 30s, 40s. Never really so bad, uh, as this certain situation. But when this was happening, I was it was, it was last September and I, I wasn't eating, wasn't really sleeping. So it didn't like, snap my fingers and be like, I want to go get help. It built up. And if you don't sleep well, if you don't eat well and you have these things eventually, it's almost like a balloon popping, right? So my balloon in essence popped.

Shawn (00:03:10) - I should also say that I was in a very bad place. Where I needed help and I was out of ten. But everyone in their life is somewhere at a two of four, a six and eight. You don't want to get to where I was, but everyone has these challenges. It's not something unusual for sure. So you were asking me what happened, like the day before? Uh, I think it's. You're in. I was also suicidal, right? So that was another part of it. It's almost like it's hard to explain unless you've been there. But you're in so much pain. Mental pain again, it's different than physical, physical pain. That's horrible too. But if you, uh, equate it to I, I had a problem with my back, you know, and sometimes I could move to the left. I could move to the right. It feels a little bit better. Right? But, uh, this is just my experience and my. But my brain, there was no comfortable position.

Shawn (00:04:09) - The thing is just going and going and going and doesn't want to stop. And it's almost like, how do I get off this ride that's just churning away? You could I'm almost thinking of a whitewater raft, and you're in the rapids like, I gotta get out of the rapids. I need to just take a break now. I didn't know what I don't when me and my wife and she checked me into the into center, we didn't really know what what a psych ward was. I was more like, I need a place just to take a pause.

Josh (00:04:43) - Yeah. When you when you say take a pause y y you know, like when you think of psych ward or, you know, psychologists or therapists, like when you say, take a pause, you have your mind going left and right, but you can't you can't find any comfort. You can't find peace, right? Right. What kind of thoughts are going through your head when when that's happening? What does that look like?

Shawn (00:05:06) - That's a lot of, uh, what what they'll call it a rumination.

Shawn (00:05:11) - Okay. A lot of, uh, ruminating on things that happened in the past to go into the future. A lot of what I call should've, coulda, woulda.

Josh (00:05:18) - Okay.

Shawn (00:05:19) - You know, I should have done this. I should've done that. And almost you. It's. It's like a runaway train in your brain. It's. That's a little bit of an analogy. And I'd be sitting at the kitchen table with my wife and my my two kids. I was there, but I was not there. And I was sitting and literally my wife was just talking about this like, last, you know, she's like this. This time last year, you were sitting at the table, you were incoherent and you're just sweating profusely. Because it's just like you're it, you know, when you have the, the, um, natural if you're in a, uh, fight or flight, right?

Josh (00:06:00) - Yeah.

Shawn (00:06:00) - Yeah, kind of situation. But you're stuck in that mode. Yeah. It's not like it's turning on and turning off.

Shawn (00:06:09) - So your body is always in that mode. So that's why it's sweating and things are happening like because you can't just. Where is the on off switch. Yeah I don't I don't have it.

Josh (00:06:21) - Wow. If you could look back right. So you have wife. You have kids. You're sitting at table. You're checked out right. Your body is in, you know, trauma mode. Your your body is in high alert mode. And and that doesn't cause, you know, you can't really eat when you're in fight or flight.

Shawn (00:06:40) - Right. That's why I lost £40.

Josh (00:06:42) - Yeah. That's not a good diet plan.

Shawn (00:06:43) - Just. No, it's nice. It's £40. But.

Josh (00:06:45) - Yeah, but so you're going through this process and you're like checked out. What what was going on in your relationships with your wife and your kids? Like, what were they saying? What were they seeing, and how were you responding to what they were saying and seeing?

Shawn (00:07:03) - Um, was interesting because I also, when this was happening, another reaction I was having was I was shaking like I was shaking like this and people thought I had Parkinson's.

Shawn (00:07:16) - I didn't have Parkinson's is just too much. Uh, I'm forgetting the hormone in your body when you're fighting flight, but just just too much energy, really? And I would be trying to hide it. I wanted to hide it from my kids. Yeah, but literally, I'd be watching TV, sitting with them, and my leg would be shaking, and then my arm would be shaking, and they they would be physically seeing it and feeling it. Uh, and I couldn't stop. And it was just like. And my wife would be like, stop shaking. And I'd be like, I can't stop shaking. So it was really, I think, scary for them. Uh, they're 15 and 16 now, but it was scary for them. It was scary for my wife. Uh, so if can you go back to the original question? Sorry.

Josh (00:08:08) - I can see your wheels turning right as we're asking this question. Right. So they start asking you questions like, dad, what's going on? Or are you okay? And, you know, like a guy thing, you might be like, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine, fine.

Josh (00:08:20) - Right? But like, of.

Shawn (00:08:22) - Course, whenever a guy answers, I'm fine. That means he's doing shitty. I mean, that's that's that's guy code for, um. Yeah. I'm fine. Yeah. I'm fine. Yeah. That's that's that's code. I don't even I wasn't even that fine. I was just not really responding. I was just not. I was there, but not there. I'm doing all the all the the things, but I'm really my brain is not it's not there. It's it's it's in worry. It's in rumination. Yeah. Uh, it's in the fear mode and it can't stop. So. And it was weird because I tell my wife I don't I don't want to. I want to go somewhere. Yeah, right. And then no matter where I went, you're always in your head. So there's no, there's no there's no place that you can say no. That's this. This machine's not not running. Yeah.

Josh (00:09:16) - What would. So what? Who coulda shoulda, right.

Josh (00:09:19) - Yes, yes. What were some of those things that you're, like, going back and looking back here you are in your 50s and you're going, I wish I would have done this differently. I should have done things differently. And you're looking back, what were some of those thoughts that had such a power over you?

Shawn (00:09:32) - That was where more around, you know, I, I, uh, co-founded the first impact investing investment bank and there was some business things going on, and, um, and I got bought out of my firm. That was great. I got some money, but my firm was my whole identity. It was my whole life. It was my whole existence. Yeah. So there were all kinds of questions in my brain. Why do I do this? Why don't you do that? And it wasn't like passing was just I'd be harping on them and harping on them. And then I would also say, when I talk a little bit about this, uh, comparison, I think that's something that, uh, I've been doing for over 50 years.

Shawn (00:10:13) - I also think that that's kind of ingrained in us and that's also in, in society that, uh, what for every reason I meet someone or talk to someone and I'm naturally. For whatever reason, comparing myself. Yeah, I'm driving around going, well, I have this. This person has that right. I don't know, I mean, you could say it's envy, uh, or just comparing and or, you know, kind of where you are on the totem pole, but it just and I and in my mind, I'm like, you shouldn't be. Why are you doing this? Right. So. But I have no control over it. Yeah, yeah. Uh, I think also. Because all social media. So, uh, social media that enforces that. And of course, as an adult, I know when I'm scrolling through these things, I know that these aren't the real world that you're seeing, but you're still your comparison. Even worse for for people that are younger, that they don't know the difference.

Shawn (00:11:14) - Right? They don't know well what's it's hard for them to see what's what's real.

Josh (00:11:19) - Yeah, it's hard to know what's real, because I spoke with some of the developers who created social media. And, you know, part of their thing was stickiness. Of course. Of course. You know, like, how do we get you addicted to your phone? How do we the the the feels, the vibration, the tone. Right. It's a that norepinephrine and dopamine hits and. Right. It's all these things. Um, but.

Shawn (00:11:44) - I'm not blaming my phone. Right. And there's no one. There's no blame on anyone. This is kind of what happened, for sure. Uh, but I would also say, yeah, there's this this, this stigma. Let's use a different example. Let's say, uh, let's say I broke my arm. Okay. I go to the hospital, they fix it, I get back home, people are signing my cast, you know, piece of my body is hurt.

Shawn (00:12:11) - Let's say I bruised my brain in this situation, right? Uh, I go to the hospital, and I have to kind of hide in the corner, or I'm weak or I'm whatever, you know? You want to call me. Yeah. Uh, and that's that's just. It's same kind of temporary injury. Uh, but but people are going to look at it totally differently, and and I get it. But that's, that's a little bit of an analogy.

Josh (00:12:37) - Yeah. No, it's it's, it's a it's a pretty darn good analogy. So. All right, so you bruise your brain right. And you go to get help, you're going, I need help. I'm checking out my brains. There's no rest here. Not eating, not sleeping. We go into the psych ward, we go in, we start meeting with people, and they. They're doing all sorts of tests and fill in the blank. Right. If you could look back in, like, a tribute, that balloon popping to, you know, combination of things, what would you think were the most heaviest contributors to the balloon popping?

Shawn (00:13:13) - In other words, what was the trigger?

Josh (00:13:15) - Right.

Josh (00:13:15) - What's the trigger? Yeah, yeah.

Shawn (00:13:16) - So, uh, it wasn't one thing and it wasn't anything that average people are not going through. So it was a let's let's go to the combination platter. So it was last September. I did have Covid I don't know. That's I'm just going to add that to one of the factors I had Covid right before. Yeah. Uh, when I got depressed from time to time I'd go on antidepressants and then I start feeling better and I go off antidepressants. So it was a little bit like, no, why am I taking these drugs? I don't want to be on these drugs. And then I'd be like, oh, I need these challenges. So, so it just kind of it would be robbing. And at that time I wasn't on them. Um, I think there were pressures, uh, from work and challenges from work. Everyone has pressures and challenges from work. Nothing unusual. Uh, kids growing up, going to new schools, new people meeting, a lot of new people.

Shawn (00:14:16) - Uh, and I think also, yeah, a little bit of the midlife crisis stuff, like, okay, I'm, I'm 50, whatever. What am I doing, who am I, etc.. So it wasn't like something traumatic happened that I was in a car crash or was, you know, my one of my parents passed away. No, it was a combination. And then the second combination was. Really with that perfect storm, not eating well and not sleeping well when your system is losing £40 and not sleeping, eventually it just at some point the system pops and that's not necessarily a bad thing that it popped right? I don't look at it like, oh, that was so when it was happening, I was like, this is the most horrible thing that ever happened. Yeah, right. Exactly right. Because I was like, I'm going to be handicapped for life and I'm never gonna. I remember being like, this is, this is it. But if you kind of go fast forward a year, I'm like, are.

Shawn (00:15:19) - In a weird way. Maybe that's the best thing that ever happened. Right. So it's it's it's strange. Yeah.

Josh (00:15:28) - If you started to go through the the feelings of the balloon filling. Right. And you feel it stretching. Yeah. I had to blow up a bunch of balloons for my kids the other day. So I have the image in my brain and stretching and you could start, you know, like if, if you or other dudes in the audience are listening in and they're going, wow, man, the balloon is stretching. What are some of the signs, symptoms and what are some of the things you could do? Maybe you what could you do to fix it? Right. Like we're fixers. What could what what can we do in that when we know that that's happening?

Shawn (00:16:03) - Right. So signs and I've spoken to so many people that have also been this same, same head. They might have different experience, they might be in the military, they have a different experience, but they have similar symptoms.

Shawn (00:16:14) - So a lot of the symptoms are really you're not sleeping well. You don't want to get out of bed. You don't want to take a shower. You luckily I don't know if luckily for me, but, uh, you know, I, I lost weight. You might. Some people are like, that's great, because I gain weight. Uh, it's also, you don't want to talk to anybody. The people that you usually have normal conversations with, like, I don't know, Josh is kind of. He's not answering my my text. He's not answering my, my my email, things like that. So, uh, those types of things and then on the, on the on the flip side, what do you do? There's kind of I look at it from two different perspectives. There's kind of the habits that you can try to work on, and I can go over some of those. And nothing I am going to say is this is a new cure or whatever this is. This is nothing, nothing, nothing new.

Shawn (00:17:12) - What whatsoever? Uh, and I would say, um, and just to rewind a little bit and also, you know, we have the real Mental Health Foundation and what does that based on that's based on the power of conversation and community, which were really big parts to me that helped me. I think it's a piece to the puzzle. Uh, we don't have all the answers to mental health. It's a big pie. But that that slice was super important to me.

Josh (00:17:43) - Yeah. Give us some of the. Give us some of the habits. What are some of the things.

Shawn (00:17:46) - Right. So habits a simple stuff. This is simple stuff. Get into nature you know, go outside. Go for a damn walk. Right. Yeah. Uh, creative outlets so that you can have your brain focus on different things. So, for example, I like to speak different languages, uh, and or hear different languages. And I lose myself when I hear these things. I'm just like, oh, or I might be sitting at a table and hearing someone speak.

Shawn (00:18:15) - I speak some Mandarin. I hear that little Chinese. I'm like, oh, spying. And I'm not. I'm not thinking about stuff. I'm like, oh, this is cool. I can be a secret. It could be a secret spy. And I'm listening. Or someone might like anything. Could be gaming, could be you like to play the guitar? Could be you like to watch football? Doesn't really matter, right? I think another big part was. And this is hard for people now, uh, is finding a community, you know, finding community. Yeah. And there's a huge issue with guys and loneliness. You know, uh, and isolation and guys in general, we are loners, right? We want to loners. We want to just handle that. That you know that shit, right? We're like, nah, man, I got this. I got and we, we gotta, we gotta slay the bear and bring it home. And that's all. That's all.

Shawn (00:19:10) - That's all good. We all get it. Uh, but, you know, and that's what we're also trying to create with the foundation is it's a place where guys can talk about some of this stuff and not feel like they're being judged. And, you know, it's interesting be the difference between men and women because have some women involved and they say, they said, I had a conversation. She's like, this is a place where guys can talk about their feelings. And when she said that, I almost threw up. I was like, no, guys don't want a place where they could talk about their feelings. A guy doesn't want to talk about, you know, hey, I had I was going through some shit, man. I was there was some struggles, right? And just share that stuff. We don't. It's don't want to just a little bit of a different framing. But you get it. We don't want to talk about it. Yeah. Feelings. Get that. What are you talking about.

Josh (00:19:59) - What are you trying to say?

Shawn (00:20:00) - Right. Are you trying to say no, no, no, we're not going to talk about that. We might talk about it a little differently. But this it's it's it's it's the framing. Uh, another thing that helped me, uh, was, uh, journaling some, which is, it's weird. Uh, I don't when I say journaling, I do it in a different way. Some people write down their thoughts, I more grab my phone in the morning, and I just speak into it for 15 minutes. Yeah. And it doesn't matter what I'm saying. And sometimes I look back and go, what did you say in that? It doesn't. It's more just kind of getting it out of your system. Yeah. Um, another thing I think is helping other people, right. That's been huge for me because now, you know, I went through a bad situation and now I'm trying to help others that might be in a similar situation. But, hey, there's also a selfish reason because when I'm helping them, it helps me.

Shawn (00:20:51) - I, I like when people are like, Sean, you made a freaking difference. I'm like, oh, that makes me feel, you know, that makes me feel good. So helping others and then it's really the world is kind of insane right now, right? Sure. Wherever you are just doesn't matter what your thoughts are on politics or this or that, it's just insane. And sometimes you gotta stop and think about like, write down three things or think of three things you're grateful for, like, well, I'm I'm still here. I'm doing okay. You know. Yeah, I, I got, I got this, I got that. So those are some of the, um, kind of daily habits and then, but I would say some other things that are probably even really great for me. And I work on these and doesn't mean I do all these, but it's a work in progress as all these things are, uh, and, but have been helpful more around my mind.

Josh (00:21:44) - Uh, things to think about.

Shawn (00:21:45) - Uh, Josh? So one is. That you're already complete. Again, this is nothing new that you don't. You always think it got to be more or have more. It's always this. Like I'm incomplete. But you are already complete, right? I think another thing is we were talking about the thoughts and talking about the machine. That won't, won't, it won't turn off. Right. But there's a flip side to that. If you can realize that I can't. Not going to be able to stop that machine. It's going to roll. But you have something like, I've heard 6000 to 30,000 thoughts in your mind at any one time, but if you can, I work on I try to realize that's just the thought and it's gonna it's here for a second and then it's like a cloud. It's gone. Uh, I'll give you an example. I was walking around the park the other day that was on one side of the park, and then I walked for another 20 minutes, and I remember I was, like, annoyed at one side of the park.

Shawn (00:22:48) - And then I tried to think about what were you thinking about 20 minutes ago? And I was like, I don't remember, but I was annoyed. So these things, they come and go and you kind of gotta, you know, watch The Watcher or kind of see those things versus running down all these, these different rabbit holes. You can just you can do that. And I did that all freaking day. Again, I'm not saying I still don't do that, but but just kind of have some awareness that that's, that's that's what the machine is doing. Can't shut it off. Right. So that's why people, you know, I get it, a lot of people, you know, abuse drugs and other things because you want that machine to oh, I need this thing to calm down. Right. I needed to just just just chill. I just need a minute of break. Right. So, uh, shall I keep going? Josh? No, no, no, because I.

Josh (00:23:44) - I think that these are so good in your what you said is like. Hey, guys, this isn't new, right? Like this isn't like.

Shawn (00:23:52) - No, no.

Josh (00:23:53) - But it reinforces because anytime someone goes through darkness and they come out on the other side or they're coming out on the other side, like, I want to know, like, what did you discover in that darkness about yourself? Yeah. You know, and then and then for other guys, like, how do we how do we maybe shorten? Because maybe sometimes the darkness isn't that bad to sit in it for a little bit of time to learn about yourself and maybe a reset because you said maybe the balloon popping was a good thing for me.

Shawn (00:24:19) - Could be.

Josh (00:24:21) - Could be right. We don't.

Shawn (00:24:22) - Know.

Josh (00:24:22) - Let me ask you a question, though. Do you mind if I ask you maybe a tough question? Any question? Josh?

Shawn (00:24:27) - I'm ready.

Josh (00:24:27) - Yeah. I'm not trying. If it's really.

Shawn (00:24:29) - Tough, I won't answer it.

Shawn (00:24:30) - But go ahead, ask.

Josh (00:24:31) - Like scare you, Josh?

Shawn (00:24:32) - Ask away. Man. I'm not going to necessarily answer it, but go ahead. Yeah.

Josh (00:24:36) - Uh, and I don't want to appear insensitive or not, but I think there are a lot of guys, like, on the brink of suicide. Yeah. Why didn't you kill yourself?

Shawn (00:24:47) - Hmm. Uh, this is a good question. You know one thing. And I'm just going to be, you know, also truthful. I think if I had a gun and I'm not, like, against guns or shit like that, I'd be dead because I was just like. How am I going to do this? How am I going to kill myself? Right? That was one thing. And I can go through my my thoughts in my mind. But, but. Uh. You don't. When you're in that head, you don't necessarily want to die. You just want the pain to stop. Yeah. It's not. It's not like I want to end my life.

Shawn (00:25:27) - It's more like. I just want this thing to stop, right? That's at least to me. That's why people commit suicide. They don't. They don't want to do it. Yeah, but they're like, I can't take it anymore. I can't, I remember. Being on the floor or just rolling in pain and mental pain. It's super strange to talk about now, but I was just like, I want to do anything to make this stop. And talking about that, uh, was also drugs. Like I was in my house and I was like. Uh, I would take anything. I was telling him my wife hid everything, right? Yeah, but I was like, uh, what have we got? We got NyQuil. Okay? We got Benadryl. We got. I didn't really care. Whatever was I can get my hands on. And that's why, you know, that's why other people, I mean people I think I could easily be addicted if it was available. It wasn't so available.

Shawn (00:26:31) - Yeah. So so I don't know if I answered your question, but I tried.

Josh (00:26:36) - So I know you didn't want back again. Yeah. We didn't want to kill yourself. If you had the means, you might have. Right. And I'm glad you did it. I'm really glad you're here today. Um, but if I asked that question again, why didn't you kill yourself?

Shawn (00:26:51) - What would you say.

Josh (00:26:52) - Is the, uh, is the thing that kept you going?

Shawn (00:26:56) - I think it's also the the family, the kids, and and you also have to think that that's. That's a lot. That's mean. Super selfish. Right? Because that's going to have a counter effect on the so many more effects. Even though you might think, well, I will be out of pain. Yeah, right. And there's also the hope that that hey, when you're in that head, you know, like this is never going to get better. This is never, ever going to get better. So that's why I'm always going to be in pain.

Shawn (00:27:31) - I just want to end it. But there's also the thought that, well, people are telling me it might get better. Right? And there's, there's there's there are times or you're sitting with your family or you sit in with your you think about your son or your daughter or your wife or your mom and, and you're like, no, no, no, I can't, I can't, I can't do that to them. Um, but I was thinking about it and I was thinking, what's the best way to do it? Honestly, I was like, ah, what's the best way to do this? Do I, you know, do I do it with a car, hang myself? Do I do drugs? And I came up with the I was like, no, I think the best way is to jump off a building, jump off a a like a parking deck because I'm like, that's surefire. That's the other way is not it's not, it's not for sure.

Josh (00:28:22) - So I interviewed a dude who jumped off a seven story building, broke his back and lived.

Josh (00:28:28) - Now he's in.

Shawn (00:28:29) - Maybe May maybe that might be my technique. Wasn't that great.

Josh (00:28:32) - But yeah, you got to.

Shawn (00:28:34) - Move so high. But I would I would literally I know literally I was on different parking decks looking over the side and saying. And I didn't jump from this parking deck. Yeah. Uh, obviously I didn't, but I was. Yeah, I was I was looking for the parking decks, driving around, going, oh, that one on this one. Uh, I don't know. I don't know why I was a parking deck. I guess because building you have security and stuff, and it was just like, no, I'll just I'll just, I don't know. That was my thought process.

Josh (00:29:08) - I'm glad you didn't do it.

Shawn (00:29:10) - Oh, thank you.

Josh (00:29:10) - So much again.

Shawn (00:29:11) - Yeah.

Josh (00:29:13) - So I mean. There's a stigma sure, about mental health. And you're going on big, big, big, big platforms to talk about mental health in your in your story. You're actually going next week, aren't you? Why don't you kind of share where you're going in and what are you chatting about?

Shawn (00:29:34) - Sure.

Shawn (00:29:35) - So we'll be uh, in uh, in Davos, Switzerland, talking about, uh, mental health, part of a mental health. Have a whole section and then a, uh, a panel on this area. And, and I'm also like, you gotta. When this was happening, you got a choice. Are you going to lean into this thing? Are you going to hide in the corner? And I was like, can I curse on this show? I don't know if I can.

Josh (00:30:00) - Which one are you going to use?

Shawn (00:30:01) - Yeah.

Josh (00:30:02) - I'm just kidding.

Shawn (00:30:02) - Go for it. I was like, effort. No. I'm going to lean in and I'm going to lean in and lean in hard. And people like it don't like it. I don't know, but it's it seems to help others. So I'm just like, no, man, here's my story, here's what happened. And I tell you something interesting. So, uh, we it's called the reel, and we call it kind of the real talk.

Shawn (00:30:28) - And I've had probably 400 conversations with folks. And I was saying before, it's never one degree away. It's always a half a degree or less. I can't tell you how many times people said to me, Shawn. I've never told anyone this, but. And then they tell me their story and I say. I hear you, brother. I know so you think it's so unusual and strange, but it's. But it's not. Can I get into my, um, uh, philosophical mode? And that's very little philosophical. Not very. So.

Josh (00:31:05) - Well, so you didn't let me finish. You asked. Josh. Josh, do I have permission to talk? You can talk. Absolutely. Go for it.

Shawn (00:31:13) - I just wanted not philosophical, but it was another little bit of an analogy that you think you're. Lots of times, especially, guys think you're all alone and, uh, driving in my car and Atlanta, there's a lot of traffic, right? Yeah. So especially you, you see the traffic for miles at night, you see the lights, you see the white lights in the red lights, and you're driving in your car and you're like.

Shawn (00:31:40) - I am all alone in this car, in traffic. You see these other cars, and you don't really think that there's people in those cars going through something else. But the fact is, there's every there's someone in every one of those cars that is has something going on. There is a story with every single person and you think you're alone. But we are all on that road together. So I try to think about that. I was driving my daughter to soccer practice and I told her that I was go. Sometimes you're like. I'm alone in this this capsule, in this car. But you're really. The truth is you're not. But but that's that's the way that. Of course we think. Yeah.

Josh (00:32:24) - We sure do. Yeah. That's that another good analogy. You're good at analogies. Um, how many languages do you speak?

Shawn (00:32:33) - Uh, I speak for, but I don't. I mean, I'm like, okay, I can have a conversation so I can speak English. Obviously, I speak New York, too, since I'm from New York.

Shawn (00:32:43) - That's a fifth language, but I can speak a little German, Spanish and, and, uh, and Mandarin and Mandarin. So it's fun.

Josh (00:32:51) - Yeah.

Shawn (00:32:52) - When I was in my, when I was in a bad place, I couldn't really speak at all. I couldn't, I couldn't even, like my brain turned off. I mean, I could speak English, but but hardly. But the other things I was like, can I speak when I was like, thinking like, can I remember these other things and these other languages? I was like, no, that's gone. It's like my brain is not it's not working. Yeah, it's it's out of order.

Josh (00:33:16) - That's so neat of how the brain works, man. Yeah. Um, you're going through this process, and you went from being one of the first investment bankers in impact investing, right?

Shawn (00:33:28) - We had the first impact investing investment, but yeah.

Josh (00:33:31) - Pretty, pretty cool, you guys. You guys, did you guys accomplish some cool milestones?

Shawn (00:33:37) - Yeah, yeah, know for sure.

Shawn (00:33:38) - I mean, it's not a huge company, but we grew it from two people to ten people and also kind of pioneers in that space, because when we started, no one really knew what that was even about, which is making money and doing good and simple words. And we had a, uh, like a mantra called smarter money. So it's maximized impact, maximize return and no trade offs. Yeah.

Josh (00:34:00) - So we go from that and then you go through, you sell identity struck. Right. Like I used to be the investment banker. People used to come to me all the time. What's your advice on money? And you you're success. Right. And then we find ourselves in a psych ward. Yes. And then we find ourselves on the other side of both of those. Right. When we talk about identity, how do you how do you separate your identity from the situation you're going through or through the pain you're going through or through the job? How do you how do you find your firm foundation of what your identity is?

Shawn (00:34:36) - It's hard, right? By my.

Josh (00:34:40) - Course. Here you go.

Shawn (00:34:41) - No, I don't have a car. I don't have a car. But it's it's it's it's really hard. And I would say when I left the company, the hardest thing for me was also, I'm a social guy. And my phone stopped ringing and my email stopped pinging, and that was even a bigger part of it. Like, who am I? I'm, I'm, I'm a loser and no one's talking to me. Right. And I think this. Oh. Could be you retire. Could be. You're in the military. You come home. Could be you're an athlete. You retire. It could. It's not like, oh, that's a unique story, Sean. Now, this is not a unique story. And it's really tough. And it goes back to a little bit like those things that I'm working on to think that. Hey, you know, you're more than just your job, right? Uh, and, guys, what is the first thing the person asks you?

Josh (00:35:42) - What do you do?

Shawn (00:35:43) - Do you do for a living where you know or where do you live? And and that's that's that's normal.

Shawn (00:35:49) - Right. So that's it's challenging. And then people will say, well, then you have this, you're wearing this hat, you've got the real that's your new thing. And yeah, that is my new thing. But on the other side, I have to be in that mindset that that might be taken away. Who knows what's going to happen. Yeah. You know, this also is really tough for founders of of companies entrepreneurs where you your everything is, you know, baked in. And if that doesn't go right yeah. Then I'm I'm a loser. You know, my life is you know, what am I, you know, that kind of thing. Uh, I was speaking to a guy yesterday. Was kind of in that situation, and he's talking like, because he was a founder and because he didn't have a unicorn or anything like that. And I'm like, dude, you're selling yourself short, man. Let's see. He was the younger guy, and I was just like, no, man, you've had some great experiences.

Shawn (00:36:44) - You can't you can't discount this. So no, the game's not over, right? Just either way, you're you're, you know, you're you're a valuable person, right? So you're more than the job. You're a friend, you're a father, you're an advisor. You know this people your friends are not really. People are like, I like Josh because he, you know, does this podcast show right then they're not they're like lots of people that, you know, have no freaking clue what you do.

Josh (00:37:15) - My wife has no clue what I do. Right?

Shawn (00:37:17) - Right. You know what I'm saying? So. But but but that's that's a lot of society. That's just the way it is. Uh, but it's it's challenging your own brain. I don't think we're going to change society in that way. They're not going to ask, you know, what do you do for a living? Of course. But how do you try to switch that a little bit in your brain so you can.

Josh (00:37:39) - You.

Shawn (00:37:40) - Can deal with it.

Josh (00:37:41) - Yeah.

Josh (00:37:42) - I'm not much, but I'm all I think about is what my coach Charlie, tells me, right? Because sometimes in our head, man, we're going, hey, what are people are going to think and this and that. And of course, we're running through all these stories. Of course.

Shawn (00:37:55) - How you just you just said the good word, though. Stories.

Josh (00:37:58) - Stories. Yeah.

Shawn (00:38:01) - The stories go through all our heads. Yeah.

Josh (00:38:04) - Stories. And sometimes you need to reframe the story to look at it in a different way. I like what you said is like, hey man, I'm actually thankful that the balloon popped because.

Shawn (00:38:13) - Yeah, I mean, I'm not I don't know if I'm 100%, but it's just like, okay, you sometimes I don't want.

Josh (00:38:18) - It to do it again. But no.

Shawn (00:38:19) - I'm not going to. But you need it's almost like a reset button. Okay. All right. Yeah. You're going a certain way. Uh, I'm, I mean, not that religious, but it's kind of God telling you.

Shawn (00:38:32) - Okay, dude, you can. You gotta stop this shit, right? You need to, uh, kind of reset the button and, uh, going a little bit of a different direction.

Josh (00:38:42) - So now you're going on public stages, pretty big forums, right? And you're you're talking about your story. Yeah. And, uh, you're pretty much standing up there. Open kimono, cold, wet, rainy day, like, hey, here's what's going on. Here's what I went through. You guys might have known me back in the day as investment banker, money guy. Now you get to see the whole story. Um, when you get off stage, what are what are some of the conversations that happen after you have boldly. Shared your story.

Shawn (00:39:16) - Uh, conversations with other people. Yeah. Uh, first I would say how it feels a little bit. It almost feels a little bit like I was just naked up there, am I okay? You know, it's just like, um.

Josh (00:39:26) - It's scary.

Shawn (00:39:27) - Scary, scary. But then you also get. You do it enough, you don't get so scared. And then people mostly are not going to say it. I mean, I don't really have negative people coming up to me, but lots of guys. Hey dude, I totally relate. I get a lot, a lot like, yeah, maybe not all parts of the story, every single thing. But like, I can really relate. So for example, every time when I speak, the first thing I say is please raise your hand if you, your family member or friend has been negatively affected by mental health. Guess how many people raised their hand?

Josh (00:40:03) - Everyone.

Shawn (00:40:04) - Everybody. Right? Everyone. So? So that this is not a strange. Such a strange story. Now, it might be strange to be hearing it so frankly. Uh, but I don't. And again, mine was an extreme story, but everyone's at that place at some time, you know. No one can say, at least without lying, that they haven't been feeling somewhat depressed at some point.

Shawn (00:40:31) - Maybe there are two. I was at ten. Yeah, but no one is always, you know, uh, just always jolly. That's if you if you like that, then that's also kind of a sign right there like. Well, no, no, that's not that's not how life is. It's going to go up and down.

Josh (00:40:49) - For sure. Now I see defense mechanisms on like, how are you doing? I'm great bud. Awesome. High five. Yeah okay. And then you're like, ah, I don't know, man. You don't seem to be all right. You just had a major loss and family or you know, whatever. Fill in the blank. So um.

Shawn (00:41:06) - And people can feel it. They can you can just you can feel these things. You can feel it.

Josh (00:41:10) - Yeah. Are you okay? Yeah. I'm fine. Fine. Bob. Um, Sean, as you're as you're going through this process, man, you're you're young, dude, and you're you're going out and you're now helping other people.

Shawn (00:41:20) - Young dude. But that's okay, Josh, but keep going.

Josh (00:41:22) - Hey, relative man, it's all relative compared to a 100 year old guy. You're a.

Shawn (00:41:27) - Yes. Yes, I'm a baby. Yes.

Josh (00:41:29) - Yeah. So, you know, you're going through this and you've got your foundation. Talk to us about the foundation. Mhm.

Shawn (00:41:35) - Mhm. So the foundation is built on, on uh using the power of conversation and community to help people get better. Like I said before, mental health is a big pie. This is that's not like the ultimate answer. And within that it's it's we have a. Around that is four CS. It goes conversations, goes to community, goes to contributions, goes to change. So I'm going to have to give my pitch on these things now. Sorry. So conversations so was super helpful for me hearing you're not alone. Other people are going through this hearing that in treatment centers. But just hearing that having conversations with people. So that's kind of also the power of when I'm when I'm doing these talks.

Shawn (00:42:19) - So. During the talks around the country, around the world. That's great. It's the power of vulnerability. You talk, other people open up, they can relate to it. And that's wonderful. But the really idea there is one dude telling his story is great, but how about ten? How about 100? How about a thousand? All makes and models. You know, you got a finance guy. Uh, you got, you know, a plumber, you've got a taxi driver, you got an athlete, you got a celebrity, whatever it is, telling them stories. So. So one guy's telling the story, but the idea is to have other people tell their real stories. So to think of, you know, not one guy, ten, 100,000 people telling their stories. And then the other side, look at it similar to think of Ted talks. Right. That's a certain branding. There's a certain look that's the same idea that will in essence similar recreate a little bit what they're doing, but around mental health.

Shawn (00:43:14) - So that's the first side is the conversations. Naturally flowing from the conversations is the second part, which was super helpful for me and kind of flows exactly from that is community, right? So when I've given these talks, a lot of times, uh, guys in the back, they're exchanging phone numbers and stuff, and I should say we're talking about guys. But this affected my whole family. It's like, if you help to get that guy better, he's going to be a better dad, a better husband, a better coworker, a whole slew of things. So it's not like this is a guy's thing. No, no, it's not like that. Right? And lots of women are supporting us. So the second part is community. So we have we have an app. And this is not a technology play. Right. The app though is for uh, kind of a meeting place. And what what are the for purposes and still building this out. It's early on. If you go and you been part of the app, you'll be like, oh, this is like a house and it's got one chair in it.

Shawn (00:44:15) - So it's still a work in progress. But the app purpose is fourfold. One want to give guys a safe place where they can talk about this stuff and not feel like you're judged, right? Because everyone's going through some stuff and it's not weird and you can just have a conversation too. I was talking about Brent. Uh, I don't know. I didn't talk about that, but I had I had a guy that really helped me. His name was, uh, Brent Hurd. In essence, he was what I call he had been through something similar, uh, and he became what I call my mental health sponsor. So he, in essence, a buddy. Yeah. So he helped me. So it's nice to have people that you can relate to be like, dude, I know how you feel. I was exactly there. So it's a place where you can find a mental health sponsor or be a mental health sponsor.

Josh (00:45:00) - Um.

Shawn (00:45:01) - Third, again, this this. We're working on this, Josh.

Shawn (00:45:04) - But this is the goals is to have when you're in that situation that I was in, you kind of have this who what where who do you who do you go to. What do you do. Where do you go? It is really you can Google all day.

Josh (00:45:21) - But it's.

Shawn (00:45:21) - Really confusing. And these different places, it's really opaque. You can't really see what's going on. So to have people that have and also, you know, guys, I've talked to a lot of guys in the and it's also around their kids because this is a rampant obviously and on younger folks that they're going to these centers, they don't know what to expect. They need people to talk to the the kind of people that give support to. So who, what where, who do you speak to? What do you do? Where do you go from other people that have experienced that? Secondly, people are very curious about different modalities, from mindfulness to meditation to yoga to, you know, psychedelics, a whole host of things.

Shawn (00:45:58) - But we want to create a place where you can learn about that stuff and not be sold stuff. Right? Because if it's not, it's just like, hey, I, I, I was I can teach you about this or that, but I'm not trying to like you were saying before by my book. No, not not from that perspective. But then, uh, fourth is we put on different events. So you're going to think this is crazy, but I'm going to give it to you in.

Josh (00:46:20) - Pieces I like crazy, this.

Shawn (00:46:22) - Is this is I don't know if you can handle this. So we do this thing called we did today which is this morning called The Real Walk. Josh. So we do it. We've done it ten times in Atlanta and expand it to other cities. Uh, we met at a park at 7 a.m. today, and we walk around the park. Guys just walk around the park. I know you couldn't handle that. And what do we talk about? I mean, we talk about mental health.

Shawn (00:46:44) - Sure. We talk about whatever.

Josh (00:46:46) - Wait a second. Are you saying I can't walk here? Like, wait, why can I do that?

Shawn (00:46:50) - You can walk. You got the hat? You could walk. You can. I got.

Josh (00:46:52) - The hat.

Shawn (00:46:53) - You got that? So, you know, I'm obviously I'm kidding around. But the nice thing there is, I think especially the country, the world is all divided and we get all kinds of people. And you can go for a walk with anybody. You don't have to agree with everything that they say, but you can you can go for a walk and hang out and just be like, all right, you know, this is cool. Just just chilling and and meeting new people.

Josh (00:47:17) - Yeah. There's a Latin phrase, my mentor taught me. I know, like, four things in Latin. This is one of them. It's, uh. Salvador ambulatory ambulance. The solution comes from walking. Socrates did it. Plato did it. Jesus did it.

Josh (00:47:32) - Einstein did it. Uh, Bill gates, did it say would, uh, Churchill did it? They would get together with a few people.

Josh (00:47:38) - Yeah. Go for.

Josh (00:47:39) - Just walk. Just walk. Yeah.

Josh (00:47:41) - It's nice to walk. And everyone, most people can do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh (00:47:46) - I'll go for a walk with you. One day. You come to Ocala. Let's go for a walk.

Josh (00:47:49) - It's not that far I can go.

Shawn (00:47:50) - Yeah. Uh, let me let me finish up. Let me finish up. So we do conversations, goes to community, goes to contributions there on the contributions. We want to help to build out the mental health space. So we're want to map out the space in terms of what are different apps and treatment centers and find out what businesses are doing. So then the big C is change. So think a change in two ways. So the change is is the intangible. That's the way God. Feel that's the conversation. That's the community.

Shawn (00:48:21) - Right. And then the other side is the is the tangible. Sure. We want to help to build out the mental health ecosystem. So that's what we're doing. Um, at the foundation is not that old. It's five months old. It's just getting off the ground. Uh, of course we're looking for donors. I've self-funded it to date. Uh, but, uh, we're growing it. Cool.

Josh (00:48:45) - Where you guys go to find out more information about that and maybe be one of the season there to help.

Shawn (00:48:52) - Sure, sure, sure. They just need to go to the website. So it's the the real dot care.

Josh (00:48:58) - The real dot care. Simple.

Josh (00:49:00) - Yeah.

Josh (00:49:01) - Yeah. Super cool. During this interview, there's probably a question that I should have asked you and I screwed up and I did not ask you.

Josh (00:49:08) - All right. Okay.

Josh (00:49:09) - Do you have that in mind of like. Hey, Josh, you missed out this.

Shawn (00:49:15) - Um, I don't think it's a missed out, but just a little of kind of a a thought, right? Is that, you know, a year ago at this time, I was in a very bad place, right? Yeah.

Shawn (00:49:32) - And if you talk to me a year ago, I'd be like, this is never going to end. I'm going to be like this for the rest of my life. Right. This is this is just the way I am. And a little bit of the takeaway is. I've been there. I know that's how I felt. But it does end so that people are in this head and they think like, yeah, I don't want to be here anymore. I don't want to do this anymore. Stuff changes. Uh, just just a bit of a takeaway.

Josh (00:50:04) - Yeah. Things. Things change.

Josh (00:50:07) - They take time. The community helps. The, uh, being a part of a group. So, guys, if you need help, if you need support, um, you could always go to our guests and say, hey, I could use some help, check out their app, check out what they're working on. Their contact information will be in the show notes below. Um, I love you guys.

Josh (00:50:27) - And if you have something that you'd like to share, if you'd like to share your story or something that you've learned, or something that you think would be helpful for the community of men, head on over to Uncensored Advice for men.com. Fill out a quick form. Maybe we'll get you on the show next. Till then, we'll talk to you all on the next episode. See you guys.