How Can Men Take Action Against Human Trafficking

Speaker 1 (00:00:02) - A good day, fellas. Welcome to Uncensored Advice for men. This show is for you, as always, if you need to chat with someone. If you need help, you're not alone. My cell phone is (352) 274-4500. Or you can add on over to Uncensored Advice for men.com. And we've got coaches, consultants, therapists, pastors, people that are willing to have a chat with you and maybe talk you off the edge or just stand on the edge with you. All right, so let's dive into today's show. Noel, thank you for coming on the show, man.

Speaker 2 (00:00:38) - A pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:00:41) - All right, so without saying what you do, who are you?

Speaker 2 (00:00:47) - Well, first and foremost, I'm a servant of the Lord. a follower of of him. I'm a I'm a husband. I'm a brother. I'm a friend. And, And by God's grace, a leader.

Speaker 1 (00:01:01) - Very cool. And before we get into what you do, you've got five tattoos.

Speaker 1 (00:01:05) - Let's talk about your tattoos. What was your first tattoo?

Speaker 2 (00:01:09) - the first one was, to my mother's dismay, it's actually the Holy Spirit on the back of my my tricep. I was 18 on a snowboarding trip, and, we thought that would be a good time for a tattoo. So she. She cried when she she saw the first tattoo, and, then she started watching, you know, Miami Ink and these shows on TV. That. And she got excited about it, so. But by the next tattoo, she was actually like, oh, maybe I'll go get a tattoo with you. And so, that was my first tattoo.

Speaker 1 (00:01:40) - Do you have a mom and son tattoo? Matching tattoo?

Speaker 2 (00:01:43) - No, that would be pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (00:01:45) - That would be pretty cool. All right, out of all your tattoos, which which tattoo would you say is the most meaningful to you? Like it has a story wrapped around it where, it it just obviously tattoos are a part of you, but it's a part of you not just for the tattoo, but for another meaning.

Speaker 2 (00:02:03) - Yeah, absolutely. So I've got on, my foot is covered with, a nautilus and anchor, and it says family at the bottom. the Nautilus represents our journey between now and eternity. Christ being the anchor of of our family. and then I got that tattoo with my sister. So it is a matching tattoo with my sister, and it's very powerful as I kind of dive into the origin story of of dark watch and and what I do, it ties in very closely so that that tattoo on my foot is, most meaningful and most painful tattoo that I've had.

Speaker 1 (00:02:38) - Yeah, I, I have, I don't know how many, maybe five or 4 or 5, I don't know, but I got one on my collarbone in on, like, thin skin on bone. It, like, rattles your body. So I imagine on your foot it's just like, oh, that hurts.

Speaker 2 (00:02:52) - That's exactly right. Yeah. The skin is so thin on your foot that it is incredibly painful. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:02:58) - So, dark watch you.

Speaker 1 (00:03:01) - You, dropped dark watch. What the heck is dark watch?

Speaker 2 (00:03:05) - So dark watch is a company that's aimed at disrupting human trafficking by breaking down the business of modern day slavery. our team consists of ex intelligence members and data scientists. And we've applied all this capability at hunting, sophisticated traffickers who operate oftentimes in plain sight in our community.

Speaker 1 (00:03:26) - Yeah. All right, so there's an origin story of how this came to be, and you probably shared it a bunch. But, you know, there's there's probably a moment in your origin story where you are unaware then aware. When was that moment from going from unaware, like, man, I, I think you were, you know, you were in a rock band at some time and you were traveling around, but at one point you went from unaware to aware. Talk to us about that moment. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:03:54) - So I think it goes back to when I was a child. We were walking in a flea market with my sister, and my dad gets bumped a lady make small talk conversation with him, and he looks down and my sister is gone.

Speaker 2 (00:04:08) - so thankfully he trusts his instincts. He runs towards the exit, and a man that we didn't know was walking out the door with my sister, and thankfully he was able to save her from a life of exploitation. but not everyone else is is so fortunate. And so, to your point, I was on tour with a rock band. We were all over the world, and I get this flyer on human trafficking. So I have this experience as a child that's sitting, you know, in my subconscious. And I received this flyer learning that people are exploited around the world, that there's 50 million people enslaved. And so I needed to see this firsthand and really wrap my mind around what human trafficking was. So I took a team to India, and we went to the brothel area of New Delhi, and we saw this 14 year old girl that was being trafficked. She was kept, you know, behind these iron bars. And, it sat right above a police station. Police were actually directing traffic and helping, direct customers and buyers to, to this brothel.

Speaker 2 (00:05:15) - And it was that moment of thinking that this girl was probably sold into slavery, out of desperation from her family. And now you would think that, a first responder in this scenario would be the first line of defense for her. And instead they were facilitating her trafficking. And it was that, quote by Edmund Burke where he says that all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. And I think it was those wires being crossed between getting the flyer, that first experience as a child and then seeing it firsthand that I was like, this is what I'm dedicating my life to, is this fight against, modern day slavery.

Speaker 1 (00:05:58) - In in modern day slavery. You know. Holy moly. The the the fear I have, I have kids. And the fear of my kids being harmed in any way terrifies me of getting hurt or getting injured, you know? And that's that's my kids. Right? But I think as a dude. Right. So when good men do, nothing is when evil prevails.

Speaker 1 (00:06:24) - Right. Like I'm doing a decent job at, you know, being a husband and a father and I've got my little bubble. But when being exposed to different things, man, we see it. And we could either choose to, you know, like my son and I are walking down the road and he sees a piece of trash like he could pick it up or do nothing and step over it. Or you walk by a homeless person and they're asking for money. You could pretend to not look, or you can maybe give them money. Or if you don't have money, you could just say, hey, man, I'm sorry, I don't have anything. I'm just I'll think and pray for you, right? Whatever the case may be. But you can you can step over and walk by and issue. But at some point you have to make a conscious decision of, do I do nothing or do I do something for you? You got this flyer. You saw this 14 year old girl being trafficked.

Speaker 1 (00:07:11) - Your sister was almost, you know, trafficked, kidnapped in traffic at, you know, at a flea market. So, like, at what point did you go, Holy shit, I gotta do something. I I'm the one who has to do something.

Speaker 2 (00:07:25) - Yeah, absolutely. So once I saw it firsthand and then just started hearing more stories of desperation throughout India, it's like, how can I not do something? And so the first step in this was creating a nonprofit where I spent months on the road, in a van with a couple friends, and we went to everywhere that would just listen to what human trafficking was. And at the time, human trafficking wasn't well known. We went to Seattle and, this gentleman was like, hey, why did you travel all this way from Florida to talk about, traffic tickets? And that was his extent of the knowledge of human trafficking. And, I think that was, you know, another eye opening moment where not a lot of people knew exactly what trafficking was.

Speaker 2 (00:08:14) - And like most people, including myself, I thought that human trafficking only occurred in India and these other countries. And the more that I dove into, the data here in the United States, we saw that the problem is, is right here in our backyard. And oftentimes it's not in the areas that we think it would be. You know, we live in a pretty affluent area, and we had several major, sex trafficking busts in our area. And I think that's that's the realization is that when we see it on our doorstep, we can't just walk over the problem and we can't just look, look the other way. so that that's kind of what gave the initial spark for this. And then it's become a lifetime career of of, looking at this problem dead on and thinking through solutions to solve it.

Speaker 1 (00:09:02) - If I opened up my Google Maps or Apple Maps and I type in human trafficking or sex trafficking or by a kid or whatever the case may be, it's not going to show up. But you're saying like it's in your backyard, right? And, you know, like you walk by it every day and you don't even see it.

Speaker 1 (00:09:18) - Like what? Give it. Give us some eyes to see of where it's happening. You know, like, I live in a I live in Florida also. I don't see any signs of it or do I?

Speaker 2 (00:09:30) - You do. So every time we, we drive and we see that that strip mall and you see the Asian massage or some massage with blacked out windows. They're open till midnight and something just looks off. A lot of times that's labor trafficking into forced prostitution. And, what is amazing is, is that there's 32,000 illicit, massage brothels here in the United States. so this is there's an incredible demand for this. the other thing is, is that you can go on Google and Yelp and, and they will talk about the services very openly that they're receiving, either in code words or sometimes not in code words, just very direct of, of what's occurring. and then we also see it when we look at the reviews for hotels. So we'll go on the TripAdvisor or Yelp for, several hotels that have been sued, and you'll see people saying, hey, sex trafficking is occurring at this hotel.

Speaker 2 (00:10:30) - Someone needs to do something about it, and they won't. They'll just look the other way. and so they've they've faced several lawsuits. There's been several lawsuits that have been brought against the hotel industry and banks for for looking the other way. but that's only a portion of the trafficking that we're seeing. That's the visible portion that we see. There's a whole digital portion of this as well that, occurs unfortunately, quite frequently.

Speaker 1 (00:10:57) - All right. So. Man. So this is this hits. This hits close to home. Because I've had friends of friends who have been, convicted from going to these places. And, you know, there was a this this was, you know, I don't want to uncover friends, but, like, you know, like this, this hits close to home where where men, you know, normal dudes go into these places and, you know, you get a massage and, you know, you're like, why is the windows blacked out? Why am I paying cash only? Why? You know, like, you know, why do they offer me other services? Right.

Speaker 1 (00:11:36) - And what what we what we as men do in, you know, tip toe the line or, or what is the word wrestle with temptation, right. Like, we'll see how close we could get. And, you know, I was always curious of that, too. And I'll share a story in a little bit of of how I almost got I almost get caught up in it. Right. But like, it's, it's right in our backyard. How come it's not being shut down by police? Right. If they're if they're saying it on their advisor or their comments like how how are they not getting busted and shut down as illegal activities.

Speaker 2 (00:12:15) - That's a great question. I mean, first of all, they have to be licensed. they have to receive a business license. They have to get approved by the Department of Health. and they are oftentimes operating in plain sight. And I think that that poses a very interesting question as how come there can be in Jacksonville, I believe, something like 30, illicit massage brothels in Jacksonville, without them getting shut down on a regular basis.

Speaker 2 (00:12:43) - And I think that that's going back to, good men doing nothing. You know, this is an opportunity for us to put a little bit of pressure on our town councils and law enforcement to look at these facilities for what they are, and start to go go after them. But I don't know if it's a lack of will, a lack of understanding or or something more, there. But for whatever reason, they, they are operating in plain sight and oftentimes in large quantities.

Speaker 1 (00:13:13) - Yeah. Wow. All right. I got I feel like I got to share a little bit of the story and then get your views on this. I was, probably 18, 19, 20 years old or something like that. And I was driving from Florida to Kentucky. And I see on the side of the road, it's like, you know, massage, you know, you know, you know, truck, truck, truck, you know, truckers, whatever the case may be. And you go in and it's in a deserted, like, strip mall, right? And you're like, this is this is sketchy, but in your mind, in my mind, at least, I was like, I don't want to hire a prostitute.

Speaker 1 (00:13:43) - I'm not looking for that kind of stuff. Like, I would like a massage. But there was this curiosity of, I wonder if it's like that or not. And I was willing to pay the entrance fee just to see because my my curiosity, they say curiosity killed the cat. Like I go in and like it was the weirdest thing ever. And they there was offers. There was offers for showered, there were offer for other stuff. And eventually, like, I was like, I need to get out of here. And they're like, okay, that'll be $80. And I didn't even get any massages or anything. And I looked down the room and there was all these men playing my song and and such like that. I was like, Holy shit. Like, this is scary and dangerous. I was like, I was I was fearful, but I was like, man, my curiosity of what was going on behind those closed doors almost got me hurt or in trouble. Right? And I'm I'm really thankful that I was fearful and I wasn't even, like, doing it out of religious belief.

Speaker 1 (00:14:37) - I wasn't even doing it because, like, I knew it was right or wrong. I was doing it because I got out there because I was scared. I was I was a badass dude, like, I was a fighter. I was doing jujitsu, I was a wrestler. But I was fearful, I was afraid, and I got out and and so I say that is I think a lot of times us guys, curiosity pulls us in. Oh, I wonder what it's like like that. Oh, I won't, I won't go all the way or I won't even get a, you know, a rubbing tub or anything like that. I'll just get a massage. And I think that pulls us in. My story. Is that a story that you hear from other men of how they get involved in it, or how they get pulled into it?

Speaker 2 (00:15:18) - Oh no doubt. I mean, you know, friends and friends of friends have been in that situation many times. And, we know that, you know, in our area, we've had several busts of of high profile people, including lawyers and doctors and even pastors that have been wrapped up in stings, related to this.

Speaker 2 (00:15:37) - And we've seen, you know, the craft case, the high profile people that have been, wrapped up in this. And I think that, you know, part of it is, is education. I've, I've sat down with, with my friends and in a loving way and no shame, you know, discussion of, hey, let's let's just kind of talk through what this is, from our side in the intelligence that we see, these, these women are labor trafficked often into these places. They're sometimes living in the facilities. They don't have control of their passports. in some cases, we've even seen them cooking out back or or don't have the freedom to actually leave the facility. And a lot of these are brought in under student visas where they think that they're actually coming for a legitimate job. This isn't the the life that they, they chose. And then they get, through forced fraud and coercion, tricked into this forced prostitution, which materializes in these sketchy massage places. And when I have that conversation with my friends, a lot of them are like, man, I've never thought about it that way.

Speaker 2 (00:16:43) - You know, the last thing I'd want to be doing is supporting human trafficking directly like that. And I think, you know, it's it's the ability to to have that conversation. And for the friends that that have gone to those places, there's grace, you know what I mean? It's like there's no shame in it. And I think that there's there's so much shame around talking about addiction or temptation that it becomes so taboo that people can go so deep down the the rabbit hole without ever having a friend reach down and pull them, pull them out. And I think that that is so valuable to have other men that are honestly and openly speaking about it and and not using shame as a weapon, but creating a safe space for other men to talk about the the real things that are on their heart and, and to be an encouragement for us to all level up together.

Speaker 1 (00:17:40) - Yeah. That's so good. guilt as I did something bad. Shame is I am bad, and a lot of us are guilty of all sorts of stuff, you know, whether it's this, that, whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:17:51) - Right? Like, everybody, everybody listening in, knows their own story, knows their own things, that they're hiding in the in the dark. And it might not even be. Let's take porn, for example. You and I were talking about porn prior to hitting pause or record whatever. you know, like, for me, porn is not right for me. Right. For other guys, it might be no judgment, whatever. But, like, for me, I know it's not right. Why? A few different reasons. One is I believe that, you know, God created man and woman in their in in his image. And now I'm watching, you know, fellow sister do those things who's not my wife. And, you know, I'm getting aroused and then, you know, I, you know, I fulfill the deed and it's cheap and it's easy and it's accessible. Right. And there was a time, man, where when the internet first kind of came out and you had LimeWire back in the day, where I could just sit in my room all day long and, you know, be entertained with the whatever my wildest fantasies were.

Speaker 1 (00:18:49) - And that and I was addicted, man. Like I couldn't leave the room. And then if I did, it was just to go pick up a chick. Right? So yeah, I say this, you know, porn industry, how how is the how is the human trafficking in porn overlapping because we're talking about shame and guilt. And for me, just, you know, I'll just share my own personal thing. I struggled deeply with porn back in the day. So how did how did these all connect? And when you talk about sharing with other men, how do we how do we get through that? Because a lot of guys won't talk about this stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:19:24) - No doubt. And so, you know, with the commercial sex industry, it's oftentimes connected to human trafficking. at the very least exploitation. And there's there's a degree of exploitation, you know, you'll see that there's certain porn types that, whole categories around this idea of tricking someone into, sexual acts. Right. And so that that deception, is a form of exploitation.

Speaker 2 (00:19:54) - But even beyond that, Pornhub was, was sued for sex trafficking. Sex trafficking was occurring on their platform. they knowingly allowed that type of material to be on there. They had very few checks and balances for, eliminating porn of that type. And, and they got sued and they paid out on that lawsuit. And so, you see that especially in, in, areas that are in desperate need of economic resources and poverty where people will exploit others, on film and then put that on sites like Pornhub and other adult entertainment sites. And, and I think to your point is, is that there there need not be shame because not only are the men and women in those films made in the image of God, but the viewer, and those that have been addicted to porn are also made in the image of God. And I think that it's, it's easy to forget that, when you're in shame, any sort of addiction or shame, you forget that you are made in the image of God. And, I think that, you know, there's been so much push for for using guilt and a shame as a, as a tool to break people out of addiction.

Speaker 2 (00:21:15) - But the studies show that it's community and it's, a sense of safety and loyalty to that community that allows you to be lifted, out of that. And I think, you know, to provide hope for anyone that that is looking to, to break addiction is you have to first believe that it's possible. You have to believe that it's actually possible to to break free of your your addiction. You may not have the answer yet of what that looks like. that may not be perfectly clear, but that switch in your mind of, oh, man, maybe this maybe this freedom is possible, this freedom that I've always, desired. And I think that once that lightbulb goes on, just that glimmer of hope, and it's like, okay, I'm made in the image of God, and, and I can possibly overcome this, just possibly. I think that's the first step to a lot of people's recovery, and creating this environment of freedom.

Speaker 1 (00:22:15) - Yeah. That's super special, man. So, you know, for let's talk let's keep talking porn and sex for for a minute here.

Speaker 1 (00:22:23) - and I love this. I love this format. I love this show. because I do believe that we need to talk about these things, and not many people are doing. I've been, you know, shut down and warned on YouTube and in other platforms and I've, you know, I've, I've, I've been in, you know, in trouble in that way. And then I've also been ridiculed and critiqued and such like that. And it's scary for what I'm doing. You're taking it even, you know, like, for me a step further where, you know, I'm there's always in the back of my head, you know, the, the, the crazy, critique critics or the, the activist who are for these things are for evil or are for that. And because I state my opinion now I'm a target or your target. Right? When you're talking openly about these things, man. Like, do you not fear for your life, your well-being, your safety, your family?

Speaker 2 (00:23:19) - And it's like, our time on Earth is so short.

Speaker 2 (00:23:23) - Our life is literally not not our own. And, when we signed up for this mission of fighting human trafficking, it was a it was a blank check. and it was kind of, you know, in the same way that we would defend the freedoms of, of our country and, and our ability to have free speech on this podcast, is the same level of dedication that we have to the fight of freedom of those that are enslaved. And so, we take a lot of, you know, precautions. But I think that again, it, it requires men to push back on, on evil and, you know, if for nothing else, to just stem the tides and say, hey, you know what? We're not just gonna let carte blanche evil pass through our communities, in our homes and and, in our backyard. so I think that that's, that's always something that we're, we're prayerfully cautious about, but also with the recognition that, you know, this, this life is not our own.

Speaker 1 (00:24:27) - Yeah. Wow. So in the, in the world of porn massage parlors, you know, there's there's solicitation, there's exploitation. And on the other end of. Of the transaction. It could be. Maybe not always, but could be a woman or a young girl who is forced into that role. And, you know, we. We press play on our phone or hand over the cash at the massage parlor and we get what we want. But that girls wants desires future is not being accounted for. Right. So. Oh, man. So in these situations, us pressing play, us handing over dollars is supporting it. So it's one thing to to walk past the the issue and to ignore it. It's another thing to contribute to the growth of it, the positive reinforcement of it with our dollars. Wow. So you know, you work with. You have large data sets. You have intelligence. You have, you know, special ops people in in all these, you know, nerds behind computers and, and smart people like doing things.

Speaker 1 (00:25:58) - So you you're seeing the whole picture of it. And it's not just the, the, the creepy guy with the huge wide brimmed glasses and then a, you know, blacked out minivan, you know, near playground. Now, this is, this is this is affecting and, you know. White collar America to. What surprised you most by looking at all of the data, looking at all of the transactions, watching the videos, watching, you know, like doing the intelligence on it. What surprised you the most?

Speaker 2 (00:26:31) - I think the levels of sophistication that are behind, these things that seem, you know, these illicit massage brothels and these types of things, there's hardcore, organized crime that's, that's often operating behind this. There's intense money laundering, and then there's connections sometimes to weapons and drugs and, and other, crime types. And I think you start to pull, pull the thread of, of something on the surface and it goes very deep, elsewhere. And so, captured some of that in a book that I wrote recently.

Speaker 2 (00:27:10) - But I think that was one of the things that really, really shocked me was just the level of sophistication and that the strategy of these, businessmen and women that are behind the trade of trafficking, that is very sophisticated. And and we as a society have to level up our tactics, on the law enforcement side, on, a commercial side, all the industries that support it and and that was the the thing, too, is that with the sophistication, trafficking relies on 30 different industries to move, what they would call their product from point A to point B. And so you need planes, you need trains, you need automobiles, you need hotels, you need bank accounts. and there's these 30 industries that are often unaware that they're helping unknowingly facilitate human traffickers, in conducting their, their day to day operations.

Speaker 1 (00:28:08) - Yeah. talk to us about your book, man. This would be a good place to, you know, share about it.

Speaker 2 (00:28:14) - Yeah, absolutely. So, the book is called Dark Traffic.

Speaker 2 (00:28:17) - It comes out in July, available for pre-order on Barnes and Noble and Amazon. And this book is the culmination of ten years in the the fight against human trafficking, everything from the nonprofit side to touring the world with the band and raising awareness to, the inner workings of of a raid that I went out to. But what this book really toys with this idea is, is is anyone beyond God's grace? even those that are the facilitators of trafficking, and the traffickers themselves. And so, very excited to bring this, this book to you, to life. thank you to Whitaker Publishing House who who believed in this book and, and took a real chance on bringing a topic that was completely outside of their normal publishing, to market. And so, yeah, very excited to bring this in July out for the world to really understand.

Speaker 1 (00:29:20) - So Amazon and Barnes and Noble is a place where people can pre-order, it's called Dark Traffic. Now, when you talk about dark traffic, right, I assume you're talking about human trafficking, right? That's where the traffic comes from.

Speaker 1 (00:29:35) - Like, is there other meanings baked in the names and baked into the programs and the, the, the things that you have CSC dark watch and dark traffic. Right. Like, how did you your your singer songwriter write like, words are meaningful to you, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:29:54) - Definitely. So like with Dark watch, you know, it's like we're we're eyes in, in the dark. We're looking, in the darkest corners of the world and the internet, to find this. And, and part of that is, is that when evil operates and it often thinks that it's operating with impunity, that no one is, is watching and, and part of, the naming of the first non nonprofit that I work for was, to redeem the shadows and that there's these people that are in this life of trafficking that think that their voice is never going to be heard, they're never going to be seen, and that they're committed to this life of, exploitation to the time that they die. And, and the idea with, with the naming and the solutions that we're, we're bringing is, is to bring hope, to bring a voice to the voiceless that have often operated in the shadows, in the dark.

Speaker 1 (00:30:54) - Yeah. I watched a movie. Its recent The Sound of Freedom, right? And that movie was hard for me to see, right? Like, I like action movies. I like, you know, thrillers and, you know, like, sometimes I turn on a movie so I can escape, you know, and I could get caught up in a storyline or something like this. I watched this movie and it was hard for me to watch, right? Like they were very tasteful about, you know, not showing graphic images and such like that, but you knew what was going on. And for me, you know, having having young kids, for me, that was so hard to watch. How how do you go about learning about these things and studying these things? Because you're going to get exposed to the darkness and those images, those things. Don't get erased very easily in the mind. How do you approach this? How do you protect your heart? How do you not go crazy?

Speaker 2 (00:31:57) - Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:31:58) - Thankfully I've got, you know, going back to community and the importance of it. a good community of men that have surrounded me to, to make sure that they're mentoring me, that they're pouring into me, that they're checking up on me, to make sure that that, that there isn't drift when it comes to to this. but to your point, it is it is hard and it is hard for anyone that's on the front lines of of anything that you're exposed to. trauma, and especially extreme trauma. So, you know, all your first responders and definitely appreciate your background is as a first responder as well. you know, that that that starts to sink in and you have to kind of build a wall around that so that you can even do your job and, and operate. Otherwise you would be contemplating these things all day long and, and unable to function. And so, on the one hand, that's that's a beautiful trait that our, our, our minds and our bodies are, are programmed with that ability to compartmentalize.

Speaker 2 (00:33:05) - but if we don't address it, then it does. It's, it does start to, to consume. and so it's important to find rest and important to is taboo as it is. It's to go to therapy, you know, it's like, I've resisted that for a long time. And I said, you know, I don't need therapy. And just like every other guy and, and finally, you know, someone was like, hey, man, I think it's it's time for you to to start addressing some of these sort of things. And so there's really no shame in, in that and getting the help and, and, and having a community, of guys that know you that you can be real with, I think is so important and I think that's tough as guys to kind of let down your guard enough to, to actually have a real conversation of like, hey man, I'm struggling today with this. And, you know, use your support or prayer or whatever. It's seen as weakness.

Speaker 2 (00:34:01) - But but oftentimes that's that's strength. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:34:05) - I, I really appreciate you sharing this stuff. And I there's a there's some questions I want to ask around the, you know, your past and your band and such because you know that that kind of prepped you for the stuff that you're doing today. But when you talk about the men holding on to the past or the things in the darkness, there's a cost of carrying the shit, right? It's the the guilt, the shame. Maybe just trauma. Right? Like as a firefighter medic back in the day, like I saw things that our soul was not designed to see. We were. We weren't designed to see abuse. We weren't designed to see death or suicide or murder or, you know, gore, human body ripped inside like our souls weren't designed to see that. So we see that. And it leaves scars, especially when it comes to calls or situations with women and children. For some reason, those seem to stick when you're trying to lay in bed and go to sleep.

Speaker 1 (00:35:07) - For me, and for a lot of my firefighter buddies, the way we cope with it is we joke, we laugh, we have crude humor. probably drink too much, right? We we covered up in busyness. I had four jobs as a firefighter medic, so I was always busy, and then I, I chased women, right? So I was either drinking, chasing women or working, and there was no time for the quiet and the stillness. Because when you close your eyes, those images, those traumas pop up and I'll drive you mad. Until I learned about counseling, coaching, therapy and such like that, where I realized that my body's bringing those things up or my mind to heal, to work through, to process, to talk about. But guys don't do that. So then it just turns into a spiral, and before you know it, you're looking for the answer in the bottom of a bottle. So I say that you used to brush it off and go, I'm not going to do therapy, coaching, all that, you know, stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:36:03) - That's not for me. That's for the guy over there, you know, like The Shining. That guy needs it, right? Not me. At what point were you going? Okay, maybe I do need help. I'm struggling with fill in the blank. And I need some help processing this.

Speaker 2 (00:36:20) - Yeah, absolutely. I think, to your point, it's like there wasn't really any good outlet for for the, for the stress and, and, and maybe trauma that, I've experienced in the line of work that I do. And, I think that you bottle that up and then it starts coming out sideways, you know, oftentimes in those closest to you interpersonally and, you know, if you've got a good partner, they can recognize it and lovingly tell you, hey, you know, you need to go. You need to go do something about this. And, and that's the thing is, like, you know, I, I always had this maybe limiting belief around, getting that kind of help was that I would lose my edge.

Speaker 2 (00:37:07) - and so that was that was the belief that I had of. All right, if I'm going to go to therapy or counseling, then I'm going to lose the edge. That makes me good at what I do. And, it couldn't be further from the truth. I actually became a lot better at what I do by, taking out some of this code in, in my brain that we all have and that we all carry. Doesn't matter who you are. You've experienced some form of trauma, and they, you know, break it into little T or big T traumas. But everyone has has trauma in their life. that affects the way that you perceive the world, the lens that you look at the world. And that is a code that's oftentimes operating in the background. you don't recognize that that code is the code that is pushing you to to take that drink or to fulfill, you know, that numbing that pain in that certain way. And, it's like when you used to run the, the anti-virus software and the, the tools for cleaning your desk, like, that's kind of what I equate, therapy and counseling to is, is, is doing that, that cleaning of the, the disk space that you have in there and getting the viruses, out that you've kind of accumulated from, from these traumas.

Speaker 2 (00:38:27) - And so once I was able to see it from a different perspective and then start to see the benefits, I remember the first time that I went, I was like, what a waste of time. You know, like I just spent 30 minutes kind of like, you know, barely getting to know you. And you're you're paid to have to listen to me, you know, it's like, I'll just go talk to a friend about this. Like, you know, I don't have to pay someone to do this. And so you have all these kind of limiting thoughts and beliefs at the front end, and it's it's it's kind of scary to jump over the wall of vulnerability with, with someone in, in a professional setting like that. But, for me, it was it was definitely life changing and put me on a course to, to better deal with, the things that you're talking about, the exposure to these, these traumas and, and these sort of things. And so that's the encouragement.

Speaker 2 (00:39:20) - I try and try and give everyone is like, you know, give it, give it a chance and, and give it more than just one time because the first time you're, you're just going to say it sucks.

Speaker 1 (00:39:30) - Yeah. Jumping over the wall of vulnerability. Us guys, me included. I'm a dude. 42 years of it getting pretty good at it, right? So like but we put up these walls, we wear these masks. And the fear of breaking down the wall or creating a door in it or taking off the mask is terrifying. Because what if they really know what's going on in this brain? What if they really know who I am or what I did? Why do you think that's so terrifying?

Speaker 2 (00:40:05) - I think because everyone has something that's behind the mask, that it's like that same thought. I think that thought is universal. if they only knew, you know, the real thought that I was having or the real person that I am. and that is such a a lie that we that we buy into, I don't know where, where we buy into that lie, but it is so deeply entrenched.

Speaker 2 (00:40:31) - I mean, I would probably say that the majority, if not all of humanity, has that thought at some time. And yet we think that we're so unique and like, oh man, I, I'm having this thought or this struggle that no one else in the world has ever had. And it's like there's 8 billion people alive that are sharing that same exact experience with you. And, and very few are actually talking about it. So I think that that's, that's the hard thing to do is, is to recognize that. And, and that's kind of the beautiful thing about a, a professional setting. What separates that setting from, let's say, a one on one conversation with a friend is that that you can really, you know, uninhibited, provide that, that information out and, and get, you know, some help that, that you need.

Speaker 1 (00:41:22) - Yeah. You know. I through this show has really taught me to. You know, I call it open kimono. Cold, wet, windy day.

Speaker 1 (00:41:31) - This is. Sorry. This is what I got, right? Like, you wind up like it's a vulnerability is a practice. It's like at first this was really challenging for me. I'm getting much better at this thing called vulnerability. but it's not easy because I want people to like me. I want people to respect me. I want them to approve of me. I also don't want to get in trouble for mistakes that I've made, intentional or unintentional, of the past. Right? So, like, you know, like when I realized and this is the great thing about the story of Jesus is there is no nothing that is too big that he can't love you through or forgive you through.

Speaker 3 (00:42:14) - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:42:14) - His sacrifice covers all right. For all who accept and believe in him. For me. At. You know, when I was a young kid, I was like, I'm a Christian, right? Good boy. And then I started, you know, I started getting becoming a wild man.

Speaker 1 (00:42:32) - Sex, drugs, rock n roll. And then, you know, like, more and more darkness crept into my world where there is a rift between my relationship with my heavenly Father and what I was doing, my actions, and what Satan does or what darkness does as it goes. Oh, you can't go to church. They're going to smell you because you smell like booze. Everyone's going to know you just hooked up with someone, so you know, whatever, right? So it's just like that shame separates you from community or from other men. And then now you're alone. And that's when you get. That's when the wolf gets picked off. When it's when it's out of the the tribe, the herd. Sorry, man. This is about you, not about me, but like I, I think that this is so important what you're doing and that you're talking about it when you're. When you're going through this process. Pastors, I just wrote this down. Pastors, leaders, and famous people probably have the absolute biggest struggles because who could they talk to about things? Because pastors can't have friends that know that they, you know, getting rubbing tubs from a whatever massage parlor or that they're watching porn because they would get they would lose their job, their family would, you know, they lose their.

Speaker 1 (00:43:52) - I had. What what what hope is there for pastors, leaders, famous people to find healing and to. Find grace.

Speaker 2 (00:44:01) - Yeah, I think that's, one of the hardest professions that you're in. if you're in a leadership role, is to to have that vulnerability. you know, at the risk of, of your career or, exposure and, and, that couldn't be further from the truth and in a professional setting. you know, you've got the ability to, to lay this and it's kind of one of those things that it's like a snowball that turns into a an avalanche, you know, it's like without it being unchecked and kind of stopping the snowball from rolling down the hill, it becomes an avalanche of a problem, and then you're back pedaling, that problem. And I think that's why we're seeing so many great leaders that are falling from grace. And, you know, I think the hard part is, is because we put them on such a pedestal. It's like, you know, they're men and women just just like us, you know what I mean? It's like there's not nothing that, separates them from the same temptations, the same struggles.

Speaker 2 (00:45:04) - Right? It's just they're a lot more visible and in the public eye. And there is hope. There is hope for for everyone that carries regret. They carry shame. That carries guilt. that there is a place, a place of freedom. And, I'm sure you've you've seen it in your friends lives. I've seen it in, my friends lives and my life that there is a hope that is, is beyond us. And, and I think going back to just that initial spark of, like, once you latch on to the idea that there could be something more for our lives is like, you put on this new pair of glasses and see the world with, with different, different colors. Just by that, that mere action of changing from, death to life, from despair to hope.

Speaker 4 (00:46:01) - Wow, dude. So good.

Speaker 1 (00:46:08) - Two. I got two pass for you as we near the the crest of our our podcasts. Kind of like choice A choice B and you get to choose the path.

Speaker 1 (00:46:21) - Right. And we might have time to do both. I don't know choice A I want to know more about your background, how it got started, maybe some obstacles that you've, you know, being in in music and achieving some big things like you guys have done. Right. So that could be a and we could talk about that. Right. Compare that to where you are now like and then choice B talking about how. How could God allow certain things? And maybe we could get to both, but I think both are important. But in this interview we probably only have time for one.

Speaker 2 (00:47:00) - Yeah. You know, I think, the option B is, is, is so meaningful, to, like, address that question because so many people, people have it, so.

Speaker 1 (00:47:13) - Okay, cool. So, maybe we'll have you back and we could go through more of your back because you've you've done some cool things, man, and I'm proud of you. this is a hard one, dude.

Speaker 1 (00:47:26) - 14 year old girl gets kidnapped, gets sold into slavery, gets, you know, three or 4 or 5 times a day, you know, abused by grown men. her life's in danger. Her body's in danger. she didn't choose this for herself. Her family maybe chose it for her. Maybe mom, maybe father. And this is her reality. you know, we talk about in another show we talked about, like, a human organ trafficking, right? Like that's a one time transaction. The person only has one heart, so you could harvest that, sell it once, right? Sold, sold the body. And that's a one time transaction that's also terrible and evil. But in this term of, like, sex slavery, this is an ongoing money making machine. How this girl, 14 years old, looks up and go, why God, do you allow this? If she even knows who she's talking to. Why does God allowed that kind of evil?

Speaker 2 (00:48:28) - Yeah, I think that that's a great question.

Speaker 2 (00:48:30) - And I think, a lot of people are scared of of even asking that question, you know, or is it that answer that they've determined in their mind will, push them towards a path of, of atheism? because there just is no reconcilable answer. And I think that we have to be unafraid to, to ask that question. but I don't think that there's an easy I don't think that there's an easy answer. Everyone's looking for a tightly packaged answer to why suffering is allowed in the world and why depravity, exists on the level that it does. And, it would be nice to get that, that bow on the story of it, but that's that's just not how life works. And, you know, intuitively, we know this, that, that you can't just package it into such a neat package. but I will say this is that there's time and time again in my own life where I've experienced immense suffering, the kind of suffering that you think, like, how could I possibly go another day carrying the weight of this suffering? And it's like, God, where are you in this moment? And so many times he's revealed himself, either directly or indirectly, through community or a word that I needed in that moment.

Speaker 2 (00:50:01) - And I think that when we are honest with ourselves and asking God, where, where are you in this suffering? that's usually the time that he makes himself most known to us, if we're willing to look beyond the suffering itself. And so, for me, that's that's been powerful. And then in hindsight, you know, when you look back, you we often only have the perspective of linear time where we're looking at a lot of, of that linear time, whether it's externally, the suffering externally or the suffering, internally that we're, we're experiencing. And we don't have the full the full picture, it says that we see in, in part of, of glory. And so, we may never get the answer that we want to this question. It may be on the other side of eternity, but I do know for a fact that in my life that God has walked with me through and in the suffering, and that that suffering was used for, either greater good or perspective or, or to help others, to have empathy for those that are trafficked and, and exploited.

Speaker 2 (00:51:16) - So I wish I could give the, the, the perfect answer to that. And it just isn't there.

Speaker 1 (00:51:22) - Yeah, it which makes it a good question, but it also makes it a horrible question, because sometimes the answer is that the real best answer is I don't know. Right. And that's a, that's a that's a terrible question to ask as a podcast host. But it's also one of the best questions. And it's just like but the answer is we don't know. We don't know the ways of God. Right? Why do you allow this and not this? And why do you step in over here and change a situation and not over here? And, I don't know the answer to it. I, you know, like, we could go back to the book of job and we could, you know, see, see these things and God goes, you don't know my ways. I don't know, you know, like you weren't there when I formed the earth and such like that.

Speaker 1 (00:52:09) - So that's scary. But at the end of the day, I go, I believe based on who he is, I believe that my Heavenly father is good. Why does why does a father allow tough things happen to his kids. Terrible things to happen. Evil I don't know. I don't know the answer. Maybe. Maybe there's some dude out there in the audience who does know that answer. He got it figured out. I've seen some clips on YouTube. Guys answer it a lot more articulate than me, but I don't know. man. Noel, as your as you're going through this, what is probably if you look back on your life, what is one of the greatest. Greatest things you've ever overcome in your own life.

Speaker 2 (00:52:55) - I think one of the, the greatest things that have overcome is, limiting beliefs. And I think that we all have these limiting beliefs, whether, in my case, it's entrepreneurship or, what is possible. And I think the phrase what if is so powerful for our lives, it's like, yeah, there's so many reasons why you shouldn't start that business or break the break the addiction or, get married or or leave that wrong relationship.

Speaker 2 (00:53:30) - And, you know, so many of these things that, that are just oppressive weights on us. But I think that if we were to ask ourselves with a totally open mind, well, what if what if I started that idea? What if, I made a conscious decision to go a different life path? What if there is a way to break this addiction? Or what if there is? Oh, or what if this God, that so many people are claiming is real, is real and is real to me? I think that that what if question was it's taken a long time to, to think through these, these things and, and the possibility but there's, there's so much power in, in hope and I keep coming back to, to that power and hope that, it is life to our bones. And it says hope deferred makes a heart grow sick. But but when we have hope, it's bringing life to the entirety of us our mind, our soul, our character. And, And I think that hope, has been so transformative for me.

Speaker 2 (00:54:41) - and just seeing these possibilities that are available with the Lord to, you know, turn this passion into a lifelong career and to travel the world with, with music and, and all these sort of things that were impossible if you were to see me, you know, before them or the circumstances that that I was in. And so I just want to, to, you know, convey that hope and that joy that I've, I've, I've found in that, to others. And I think that that's kind of been one of the biggest, the biggest things is the openness to to what God has for us.

Speaker 1 (00:55:18) - so good. If we're hanging out, we're getting ready to to jam some music. What instrument would you pick up?

Speaker 2 (00:55:28) - Well, I was the, the screamer in a, Christian death metal band. So either I could bring the screams or, you know, I play bass now, and, in the worship band at my church. So, what are the two?

Speaker 1 (00:55:45) - Yeah. Got it.

Speaker 1 (00:55:46) - Awesome. Now, being a screamer in a in a Christian metal band. Give us a tip for the proper way to scream. And then how do you heal your throat afterwards? And then maybe we'll we'll ask one more question before we say goodbye.

Speaker 2 (00:56:07) - You know, so it's got to come deep from the diaphragm. And there's like actually these exercises that you can practice to get your, your scream just, just right. And so if it's coming from the diaphragm, you're not going to have a horse throat. And and you actually build up like kind of a callus, around it. So, the more practice that you do, which for me started like in the car because I'm like, what am I going to do? Like, where am I going to do this, you know, so I was well, I was driving and then and then it, interestingly enough, became a big part of my life.

Speaker 1 (00:56:45) - Became your job.

Speaker 2 (00:56:46) - My job for about you do for work.

Speaker 1 (00:56:48) - I yell, I scream, yeah, I'm a yeller.

Speaker 1 (00:56:51) - So imagine this guy says you're driving around the the road and you look to your left and you see this dude, what kind of car were you driving around at the time?

Speaker 2 (00:56:59) - Toyota Camry.

Speaker 1 (00:57:01) - You see this dude in a Toyota Camry? Like, screaming. You hear some bass coming from the radio, and you see this dude screaming like, I gotta get out of here in two months. What question? Should I have asked you during this interview that I completely screwed up? Now we're going to tell people where to go to find we already know where to go to find your book Dark Traffic. People couldn't find that or I'm sorry. Yeah, Dark Traffic, which is on, pre-order on, Barnes and Nobles and on Amazon. So guys, go check out that book, always support our guest and and find a way to reach out to them and say thanks. Their their information will be in the show notes. And, the website is zero trafficking.com. Right. So that's where you could find this dude.

Speaker 1 (00:57:49) - But what question do you like, do you wish I would have asked or you wish someone would ask so you could, like, rip on it for a minute?

Speaker 2 (00:57:57) - Well, I think, the question of like, what can we do? What can the average person do to fight human trafficking is a good question.

Speaker 1 (00:58:05) - What could the normal Joe Blow do to fight human trafficking?

Speaker 2 (00:58:11) - So I think, we say is it starts with a conversation. For me, it was receiving a flyer on human trafficking and someone having the boldness to to pass out this information, and having a conversation about this, we talked earlier about how these illicit massage brothels are right in our backyard. We need to be having a conversation with our town leaders and and law enforcement about the, the reality of these places. We need to have a conversation in the workplace. so many people think that their business doesn't, you know, knowingly facilitate human trafficking. And the reality is, is that it does, and there needs to be at least some corporate policy and, and conversation, around how to respond to it.

Speaker 2 (00:58:59) - Kind of like a hurricane response plan is like, okay, God forbid it ever does happen. You know, what do we do? How do we report it? How do we go through the proper checks? And most businesses are clueless and don't have any sort of formalized plan or policy in place. And so that's a great way for you to level up knowledge that's actually really valuable, to the business and then to bring it down to a micro level, it's in the home. It's talking to, to kids about the dangers of chat based, games and social media apps, which is where exploiters are heavily, using as tools to, to lure these unsuspecting kids out. And so, part of that, and this is a theme all the way through, is removing the shame and allowing, a safe space for kids to, to talk about this, because unfortunately, there's been so many kids that have been taking their life because they get, what's called extorted or exploited digitally, and they think that there's no way out.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05) - but the reality is, is if if, we can create a safe space for them to share that information, then we can can love on them. We can provide them the tools that they need, and we can help provide a solution for that situation. And so that's kind of one of the number one things I like to leave with families that are listening to this. we had talked to about this to, to a friend of ours, and he sat his kids down and they had an open conversation. And, and his daughter, who's 12, said, hey, you know, I had a friend that just experienced this, and, and so, you know, having that safe place in conversation for these kids is so vital, to have it around the dinner table to make it, you know, really laid back and, and chill and, and, and it really can make a huge difference, on a, on a micro level, but, maybe the most important level, which is in the home.

Speaker 5 (01:01:01) - Yeah, it's super good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02) - If we were to go back and listen to one of your songs from back in the day, what song would you say is the song? That was most. touching to you as you wrote it, played it, screamed it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17) - Yeah. There was, actually, I forget the name of the song, but it was in the middle band.

Speaker 6 (01:01:23) - You know, if your friends forget your song, you could.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25) - Be mad at them. But, like.

Speaker 6 (01:01:26) - If you forget your own song, dude. Yeah, I know it's.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29) - That one's on me, but it's like, the the the line that I scream was, the Lord is, is my anchor in you. I place my hope in my trust. And, I wrote that song, I think, when I was 21, and had no idea, you know, what that actually meant until I got into my 30s. And so it was kind of. It's kind of interesting to think about that song from time to time of like how meaningful, almost prophetic those, those words would be, in the future when, when I really needed an anchor and a hope and a trust.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07) - when I was somewhat lost at sea.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10) - Yeah. What was the name of your band back then?

Speaker 2 (01:02:14) - So, the metal band was arm's embrace, and a lot of this stuff is pretty like Spotify. And so it's.

Speaker 6 (01:02:22) - Really. You have to really dig. But I think if you were to look.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25) - On YouTube and type in arms, embrace cornerstone, you can get actually, one of these performances that we did live and there's a few other videos attached to that. So you have to do.

Speaker 6 (01:02:37) - Some internet sleuthing to.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39) - To find this, arms embrace. Was that one? And then I was in a band, with my sister called anchor of Hope. And, that was a band that that did a a European tour, working with, Operation Mobilization and Ywam. Yeah. where we got to travel all over the world.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58) - That's so cool, man. Harry, buddy. Awesome. Awesome conversation. You absolutely crushed it. fellows listening in, as always, reach out to our guests and say thanks for being on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11) - Find out a way to connect with them. support what they're doing. Send them encouragement. Being a being a founder, being a, you know, a guy who's who's running into the darkness and and, you know, building a business is tough. Also building, you know, something that's mission driven and something that could be scary, is also tough. So reach out and let them know that you support them and that you're praying for them and encouraging. And, let's just be dudes of gratitude and, encouragement for each other. as always, love you guys. If there's something that you need, you could always head on over to Uncensored Advice for men. I'm probably not the best guy to help, but I could always introduce you to some of my friends, and I just want you to know that I love you. And we'll see you all on the next episode. See you guys.